Author Topic: the role of dogs (Read 3687 times)

chaplain robert · « **on:** December 06, 2005, 12:06:48 PM »

This is probably more of a defense than a survival question but in my estimation, rational defense planning can many times preclude the necessity of a survival situation.

That being said, I am curious as to the role that dogs may or may not play in your plans. I have 2 sentry dogs--both confirmed stock chasers and thus relegated to kennels when I am not with them. One is in the pasture with the horses and the other is nearer the house. Both alarm very well if anything is out of sorts. Neither has any formal training. The pasture dog goes with me after dark if something requires closer investigatin. I am considering adding a dog to the house and have not yet decided if it should be formally protection trained in bite work or if simple obedience and socialization will be adquate and just rely on instinct to protect the pack.

My situation is somewhat unique in that my wife is totally blind. When I am not home and either sentry barks, she gets very concerned. I'd like her to have a dog that is trained to run a "patrol route" around the house and perimeter of the dry lot where the horses stay when I am gone. That way, if she thinks something/someone might be out there, she could simply release the house dog to investigate. It would also accompany me on routine rounds.

What is your point of view on this and what would be your breed recommendations. Right now, I am leaning towards an American Tundra Shepherd or a Belgian Mallinois. For insurance reasons, German Shepherds, Rottweillers and pitbulls are not viable options. Basically, I am looking for something managable in the house yet large enough to be effective as a deterrant if needed. There are, I am sure, many breeds I haven't even considered so please feel free to describe your pet breed.

DirtyHarry · « **Reply #1 on:** December 06, 2005, 06:28:50 PM »

I would suggest that you look into an English Mastiff, they were bred precisely for the qualities you are looking for. Over the years I have owned Rott's, Shepherds, bull dog variants and while they are fine dog's I find them a bit unpredictable as family dogs. Sometimes under stressful situations I have found they don't differentiate between friend and foe.

I will relate just a bit of my experience with the English Mastiff. I always wanted one but the reason I finally got one was because I worked third shift and my wife didn't like to be home alone at night. I got my first one about 12 years ago, a fawn male, at about 1 year of age he began to show his true nature. Any time a stranger would approach he would position himself between us and the stranger, about the same time he started patrolling the house, before bedtime he would make his rounds going into every room stopping and listening for a moment in each room before moving on. Also he didn't bark all the time at every noise, pretty much only when a car pulled into the drive or when someone knocked or rand the door bell. He never had any formal training what so ever.

Another thing about the breed is that just their size alone is a great deterrent, a dog standing around 32-36 inches at the withers and weighing in at around 200 lbs will make most people with criminal intent on their minds think twice.

clodbuster · « **Reply #2 on:** December 08, 2005, 11:28:42 AM »

I was a on farm sales rep for an ag chemical firm and knocked on the farmers door one day when he was expecting me but obviously not out in the yard. When no one answered I turned to go and there was the biggest dog I had ever seen. He didn't menace me but clearly was interested in keeping me right where I was so I readily complied and formulated a plan to get up on the house roof if neccessary. After 15 minutes or so the farmer drove in laughing a soon as he saw my predicament. His cluck to the dog turned him into the worlds biggest licking machine and we were friends every time I called at the farm after that. This was one of the most even tempered guard/watch dogs you could want to find.

Dee · « **Reply #3 on:** February 19, 2006, 06:38:14 PM »

Being a retired police K-9 trainer (didn't buy trained dogs) and tactical sgt. I would like to make a few suggestions. #1 NEVER release a bite trained dog into an area when you not only CAN'T SEE what is going on but, are depending on a penned dog for your alarm system. This could cause some SERIOUS liability problems. #2 CONTROL YOUR PERSONAL SPACE!! How? Keep the protection dog WITH YOU in an area you are familiar with and in control of. #3 Invest in more secure doors and windows and possible alarm systems. Yes, all can be defeated but, once your wife releases the dog outside she has NO PROTECTION and, dogs regardless of how well trained have very limited powers of reason and are easily tricked when a handler is not present to direct them. #4 Choice of breed. These gigantic dogs have to eat and since this is on a survival forum I question the choice of the very large dogs if one is having trouble feeding themselves in a long term survival situation. #5 As for the German Shepherd I found the European strains to be very reliable and responsible in nature with a natural tendancy toward protection. As for the Belgium Mallinois. This is probably one of the most couragous dogs I have ever worked with. HOWEVER, they are also one of the most HIGH DRIVE dogs I have ever seen. They can be very difficult to control and the most reliable ones were handled by trainer officers or officers with VERY strong personalities. I personally keep two Jack Russell terriers in my fenced yard as I am gone a lot. Can they take a man down? Not likely. However, they have been a real deterant to strangers as the two (male and female) work together and are extremely terratorial. The down side is they will try to kill other animals that wonder into their area. We don't have snakes, rodents, CATS or prowlers. Something to think about. :wink:

bullet maker · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2006, 05:10:29 AM »

Hi guy`s

chaplin robert , I assume you have a large farm or residence to have dogs, that might bite, to roam. I`m assuming you dont live in a neightbor hood with girl and boy scouts going house to house to sale cookies. I`m with Dee, in that you could have your pants sued off if your dog bit someone. How often do you get robbed or burgurized? If you live in a scum neighbor hood with crank houses down the road, I still wouldn`t take the chance of one of my dogs, biteing the face off a little kid.

Now if you live way out in the country, I still wouldn`t. There is a scum bag neighbor about a mile from me that in the pen now for meth-lab operation. and he has 12 pit bull dogs, chained on his property, that the sheriff`s office hauled off. Just a month earlier a some guy ran out of gas, it was night time, and one of the dogs, attacked him and mauled him badily, he was just walking down the street, to go by the house. Poor guy is recovering, and cant get a cent from the drug dealer, cause the drug dealer, ain`t got nothing but an old trash trailer.

Right now all over Okla, they are bringing up legislation to ban such dogs.

Not saying your dogs that you are looking for to buy would be that way, but something to think about. There is nothing better than a 12 gauge shotgun, loaded with 00 buck. Check into radio shack for a perimenter alarm for you place. Have a lap dog in the house with your wife, when your gone to work and turn on the alarm. Like one of the other posters said, those little Jack Russel`s are good watch dogs, My friend got one, and they are something else.

bullet maker

Dee · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2006, 09:15:19 AM »

Bulletmaker, that is exactly what I was talking about. I used to do security evaluations for private residences and make suggestions on home security. About 13 years ago I trained a dog (Shepherd) that I competed with in a United States Police Canine Association field trial in Colorado Spgs. Co. We placed fourth with less than a 5 point spread between us and 1st. He was also my partner in all tactical callouts. This dog made the nationals at Ft Lauderdale, Fl. that year and was rated a Patrol Dog II. Valued at over $13,000.00. How much training does a dog need? I personally did all the training from the time he was 9 months old. I WOULD NOT let this dog out on an unsupervised patrol route!!!!!
Here's the key to what people used to pay for. Research on lighting in hallways and rooms that set up shooting lanes which offer you all the advantage. Safe rooms can be made almost inpenatrable. Let the bad guy come to you. If you must fight, do so on you terms and on your ground. Small dogs have a lot of natural enemies which causes them to be more alert and be lite sleepers. Large dogs have few and are less alert and sounder sleepers. When a small dog alerts he tells the intruder his presence has been discovered. I don't train dogs any more (except my own and family) and I don't sell Jack Russells. However, they are gutty, alert and not overly mouthy.

chaplain robert · « **Reply #6 on:** February 26, 2006, 02:38:03 PM »

Thanks for the insights, all very helpful. In a lot of ways, my concern has kind of been addressed by my neighbor. He got himself a Rott that is one downright mean dog but for some reason has decided we are alright. If anyone pulls up into the lane or a strange dog gets into the horses, he is all over it and is all business but I figure I don't carry any liability for the actions of someone elses dog. I have never told my neighbor the dog can come over. In fact, I have never even spoke with my neighbor concerning it at all. I figure if someone gets bit, I can say "Hey, that's not my dog". I am still looking for something to keep in the house with us. I am leaning towards a Black Mouth Cur so I can use it for hunting also.

Dee · « **Reply #7 on:** March 08, 2006, 12:17:52 PM »

There you go. They can be very protective. I would watch the neighbor's Rottie though. They by nature are very territorial and I do not trust them around children and women that are afraid of dogs. Sometimes these dogs are as unpredictiable as a Pit. Remember, they were bred for war. Watch your kids or grandkids when the dog is running loose. I personally shoot all unsupervised Pits that come into the yard and give only one warning to Rottie owners. This from 20 years of law-enforcement experience with these two breeds plus the Chow Chow. That may seem harsh but, I have grand kids. Good luck.

dave imas · « **Reply #8 on:** March 11, 2006, 05:48:54 PM »

Consider an Australian Cattle Dog. Incredibly loyal, smart and extremely protectlve, will give it all up to protect their person. Big enough to make anyone think twice, but not so big as to be a nuisance. Built to take the kick of a 1500lb cow and keep coming... and they do keep coming. And... when trained, you can use it to work your livestock. and i agree with Dee... if i need help from my dog, i want him in the house with me, not outside. I have two cattle dogs... as well as 2 border collies, and a Kelpie. (working sheep farm)
dave

dukkillr · « **Reply #9 on:** March 11, 2006, 05:59:43 PM »

You could be liable because of that dog if you know it's using your property. I have no idea what state you live in, or what their laws are, but to say you are completely safe from suit is very doubtful. And remember that very few juries feel will side with a mean dog over a girl scout or neighbor kid.

I like the answer that said get better doors, windows, and an alarm.

stuffit · « **Reply #10 on:** March 11, 2006, 07:38:57 PM »

If the dog is primarily for your wife, get a border collie. They are the most intelligent I've seen, bond strongly with their "family" and are keenly perceptive of and protective of people with disabilities. They can be trained to do most anything with little effort and they are most eager to please.
s.

Daks · « **Reply #11 on:** March 12, 2006, 05:05:56 AM »

We have a Springer who acts as an alarm, nothing more. Alert and responsve to outside noises but not in any way a protector. I figure that's all that's really necessary - tell me something's up and I'll do the decisionmaking from there on.

countryrebel8174 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 09, 2006, 12:11:03 AM »

im gonna go with dave imas on this one get an australian cattle dog...aka blue heeler....great dog....only problem i see though is it not getting along with your neighbours rott...and getting eaten

country rebel

Almtnman · « **Reply #13 on:** October 20, 2006, 02:06:26 PM »

I have a Great Prynees or as they call them in Europe Pyrenean Mountain Dog. These are mostly working dogs good for guarding livestock and most any other farm animal. It's next to impossible to sneak up on one of these dogs as they will sound the alarm at anything moving. They make good guard dogs to warn if anyone is approaching, but they do have a couple of habits that might not be good for smaller land owners in that they like to bark and they like to roam, but they keep a vigilance on their home turf. They will run a coyote into the next county if one comes around and are capable of taking down an animal the size of a black bear. They cannot be scolded by their owner or they will turn on you, but with care and kindness to them, they will defend you to the death. They are very large dogs, but their metabolism rate is very low, so they only eat about as much food as a dog the size of a Labador.

992 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 21, 2006, 03:01:27 AM »

I also recomend the Great pyrnees ,they are the most faithful and brave dogs that I have ever had.They are not afraid of anthing or anybody,and if it don't belong there,it don't get in.They won't back down unless you make them,and once you bond with them, they are friends for life.My Old Buddy Sixtoes is the best friend I ever had.
By the way,all purebred G.P. have double dew claws on thier hind paws ,giving them six toes on each one.

992

Almtnman · « **Reply #15 on:** October 21, 2006, 03:30:23 AM »

Quote from: 992 on October 21, 2006, 03:01:27 AM

By the way,all purebred G.P. have double dew claws on thier hind paws ,giving them six toes on each one.

When I got mine, I had noticed that and asked the vet about removing the dew claws. The vet told me that was a trademark of a Great Prynees and to leave them, so I did. Mine is a female and we named her "Miska", a Hungarian word that means Little Bear. I picked that name because the Great Pyrnees dogs looks like a little bear. When she was 12 weeks old and went for her first shots, she was already up to 41 pounds in weight. They are very popular dogs around my area where it's not very populated.

lefty red · « **Reply #16 on:** October 27, 2006, 04:02:50 AM »

I 2nd the BLACK MOUTH CUR!

Brave, but not overly aggressive. Plus they make a great small game dog, rabbits/fowl/squirrels.

JRTs are a close second on protecting. Plus they are smaller. If you went this route, I would suggest a pair. Two or three JRTs on a guy, and he has had enough! About JRTs, they really don't take training well. You can "suggest" a few things, but they have a mind of their own. But they are great for country living.

I've trained pointers/setters/blue ticks/and Labs since I was in high school. I placed in major trails in pointing, retrieving, and treeing dogs. I have trained working dogs for guides to take to Mexico. If I had to pick an all around dog, I would go for the Lab. No, they aren't classified as Protection Dogs, but even my Chihuahua will fight to the death if you are hurting one of my kids. And a 80 pound Lab isn't a wuss! They can be trained for anything. And they learn quickly and even pick up things on their own. THey just "care" for their owner. And a good Lab is alot cheaper than a good GSD. No, Labs don't strick fear in the hearts of folks, but I would be leary of any dog that just stood by its owner with "that look".

Hell, go down to the pound and get a Lab/Shepard cross, the best of both worlds!

LEFTY

WaitsLong · « **Reply #17 on:** December 22, 2006, 10:34:05 PM »

I too am interested in dogs for protection and some
very experienced guys have already responded.

Some high tech devices might be in order.

Since your wife cannot see, install some high quality
microphones, placed at key areas. Add some subtle
noise makers at these areas. For example, gravel for
a walkway, squeaky gate, etc. Then she can practice
listening as friendlies pass thru the areas. Along these
same lines, eliminate natural noises that are too loud,
like wind whipped branches that slap the house.

I once saw siesmic detectors (4) that transmitted on
a vhs air frequency, militay surplus, real neat, with a
cheapo radio reciever. The 4 were made to be portable
and each had an antenna that looked like a 18inch blade
of grass. Doing a web search, you could probably find
some info on simple DIY siesmic detectors. A call to a
local university geology department, might result in some
some helpful info.

Pressure mat switches and electric eye beams might be
useful. Other swiches could be pressed into service, such
as those used in electric sport fencing sword tips.

Infrared detectors could also be useful. They could be
used at both high levels (human level) and lower levels
(dogs, cats,foxes).

Lastly, consider cameras, that you or a friend can view,
from a remote location. Some means of recording the
camera views is important. Many rapists will case the
place by peeping, before they ever try an entry.
Web cams are getting cheaper all the time,
but there might be higher quality ones also.
A camera positioned near the entry of your driveway,
could pick up a car license: invaluable.

All of the above could be completely hidden from an
intruder or any casual visitor. External infrared-activated
lights would be noticed by anyone, but are probably
worth having, especially if a camera takes a picture.
These are cheap at big box stores.

Keep your car in a closed garage; why make it obvious
that you are gone or at home.

Dee · « **Reply #18 on:** December 23, 2006, 01:10:47 AM »

You know I haven't read this thread in a while but, I used to do home security inspections before I retired from L.E., giving tips to make their home more secure. Here's a couple of cheap ones. Plant thorney shrubs under the windows. If the fire and rescue need to use the window, they already know to throw a heavey tarp over the shrub. Theives seldom carry one. Find a home security sign from some company, or have one made, and stick it in the yard. Theives usually avoid houses equiped with system, and won't know whether you have one or not.
As for the JRTs I suggested early in this thread, I again say, they are cheaper than big dogs, much more alert, and the three I have constantly patrol a half acre fenced area keeping it rodent, snake, predator, varment, and intruder free. Mine are about 20lb dogs, and the three will make it very busy, and hard to watch ones back for an unwelcome guest. JM3CW

WaitsLong · « **Reply #19 on:** December 23, 2006, 10:31:11 AM »

For some situations, a quiet or silent alarm is better
than a bunch of barking. Are there any breeds that
are better for this?

Dee · « **Reply #20 on:** December 24, 2006, 02:12:14 PM »

I don't know of any but the truth of the matter is a barking dog has told the bad guy he has been discovered, and most of the time diverts his attention from his intended target to his new problem, which is the dog telling on him. Big dogs are big targets while little dogs are faster, many times just as aggressive, and hard to hit. They also are lighter sleepers.

Almtnman · « **Reply #21 on:** December 24, 2006, 02:20:15 PM »

Quote from: Dee on December 24, 2006, 02:12:14 PM

I don't know of any but the truth of the matter is a barking dog has told the bad guy he has been discovered, and most of the time diverts his attention from his intended target to his new problem, which is the dog telling on him.

My sentiments also. I found out a long time ago when I worked LE in my younger days that burglars and intruders don't like houses with barking dogs.

gp911 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 26, 2006, 11:57:17 AM »

I'll add a +1 on the barking dog deterrent. My Old English Sheepdog is the biggest lover around, but his "I'm not kidding around" bark even makes me jump sometimes when he suddenly hears or sees something outside. Between the ADT, the Sheepdog, and the tight-knit neighborhood (semi-rural) thieves will have a hard time remaining hidden around our place.

gp911

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #23 on:** December 26, 2006, 07:55:58 PM »

i own an american pitbull terrior and the dog is an absolute sweetheart. Keeps people away from the house to. Hes an inside dog though. I think all you'd need is a big dog to make any robbers think twice. Im not to cool with german sheppards due to all the biting they are known for. Especially in canada. #1 dog on their list for dog bites. I was reading that after canada out lawed "pitbulls" german sheppards took over the #1 spot and they doubled the amount of dog bites reported than when pitbulls were in office.

LEO · « **Reply #24 on:** December 27, 2006, 08:12:53 AM »

Dogs are a very valuable tool, just like firearms, both must be used responsibly. I travel with a dog almost everyday. He has told me numerous times that someone was near that I wasn't yet aware of. He has changed peoples whole outlook on life, he even has healing powers, I encountered one fellow who would not show me his hands he insisted he couldn't move them, after being told show me your hands or I'll send my dog not only could he move his hands he could raise them over his head and turn around, it was a miracle I tell ya. I was gone and my wife was watching my dog while I was gone, she was walking him one night late. We live in a normally quite area so this really wasn't a big safety blunder, we often walk late at night. Anyway she noticed my dog was going on alert and just thought it was another dog or something, she got to the only really dark spot on the route and the dog came unglued, two young fellows ran from the bushes, did they mean her harm, who knows but if not why were they hiding in the bushes? We will never know but the dog did his job, he let her know they were there and ran them off, had they pushed the issue he would have engaged, and when you are engaged by a 95 lb dog you don't have time to worry about much else. But like others have said these dogs should never be allowed to roam free, because although my dog is realatively well behaved and mannered, he is still a dog and sometimes dogs do unexplained things. As far as home security goes, my wife has Daucshund dogs and they bark at everything that moves, sometimes to the point of being annoying, but you won't get around with them in the house, and everyone knows the purpose of the little dog is to wake up the big dog. Fortunately the big dog doesn't also go off unless it is someone.

southernpride · « **Reply #25 on:** December 27, 2006, 03:22:29 PM »

I have a personall two breeds that I tout up whenever I have a chance. For me there is the pit-bull, they are loyal, smart, easilly trained, and can hold there own in a fight. Be sure to get good, pure, bloodlines to get these qualities. Also, there is the Rhodesian Ridgeback they are extremely loyal, strong and athletic, and can take care of themselves in a fight or out in the wild. Kind-of expensive though. Two great dogs.