My .30-30 Win. is Dead

[Tenxalibi]

It's interesting to me that a when a professional appears on the forum to clear up a question SS and Mac are sure they know better.  Better check your facts boys.

[Mac11700]

DJ:
 

#1..With rimless cases, you would be right, Mac. For rimmed cases you are wrong. The rim and the rim recess control the initial fireforming and the shoulder has nothing to do with it. #2..It's perfectly safe to fire factory ammo in the recut chamber as long as the original rimcut was within tolerances in the first place and was not deepened in the rechamber. You ain't gonna get no "case head expansion" with reasonable fireformining load. All you'll do is move the shoulder forward and expand the case body. You won't even affect case life significantly if you set up your dies properly.
 
Rimless cases are a different story, one I'm not going into at this time.
 
#3,4,5 ..(3)It's also important to remember that we are talking about Handis, not benchrest rifles. MOA is the best we can hope for and a distant dream for many of us.(#4)A perfect chamber would be nice, but we ain't ever gonna get one. A careful hand ream job is plenty good enough for what we are working with. #5...It's likely to be better than some of the work I have seen come out of factories and military arsenals.

 
 #1..Nope we will disagree here..If a chamber is cut to the correct specs for a Ackley Improved cartridge...then you will have .004" crush fit at the shoulder neck junction to fireform against.This is the way Parker designed His Improved Cartridges to work...this is why he said the barrels need to be set back to get this to happen...this is why you can use full factory cartridges to fireform your brass with in ...now get this...ANY of HIS cartridges( I'm not portraying shouting...the bolds are just of emphasis only)....all the rest of the cartridges that folks are calling Ackley Improved are not Ackley's design..read what he had to say on this...he's written many articles on it...not just only what in volume 1&2  
 
#2...Nope...I wouldn't want to fire full factory loads if the shoulder is as far away as those in the pics Quickdtoo posted..I sure as heck wouldn't want to use them...not with that amount of case stretch...and with the amount of case head expansion that will take place...I don't reload like that...and most of the folks who do are taking big chances of case separations...or split cases..and I have found only 1 person who would cut a chamber this way...call up some of the better know gunsmiths around the country my friend...and ask them...You then say this DJ.."You ain't gonna get no "case head expansion" with reasonable fireformining load. All you'll do is move the shoulder forward and expand the case body. You won't even affect case life significantly if you set up your dies properly. "...If you have a true Ackley improved...not just a improved 30-30...you can fireform with full power factory loads..not just reasonable fireforming loads...and this is my point here...I know how to set up dies properly for improved chambers..or for anyother cartridge I load for..and in a Handi rifle it is quite simple to do...
 
I have never said you can't hand load for a Improved cartridge in a Handi...look back on the subject...and by the way... doing a rimless cartridge isn't that difficult either as long as you know how to....and as long as the chamber is cut properly...and as long as the dies dimensions match the chamber specs..What I have said is you can't cut a Handi 30-30 chamber to a 30-30 Ackley Improved......The amount of misinformation on the subject is unreal..and folks want to call cartridges AI's when they aren't...what is so difficult to understanding about that...?
 
#3...Sorry...I respectfully disagree with you...here's why...I treat every rifle like a bench rest rifle...I hand polish/lap the chamber and bore..I disassemble the rifle completely degrease the action/barrel and remove any burrs that may be present..I remove the scope rail and completely degrease the screw holes and re-locktite the complete base and screws back down.I don't use cheap rings...and I certainly won't use anymore cheap scopes and those that need it..get lapped..others use Burris Signatures..I then start my handload process...I handload for accuracy,consistency,and I load safely working up in sane incriments...I normally don't take short cuts needlessly...and I take utmost care to craft the most accurate ammo possible..If I rush this process...my groups will suffer....Perhaps this is why every Handi rifle...save but 1... I have ever owned has shot well under MOA... Yes...I can be a-little obsesive about it...but I never have to worry about my ammunition being at fault when the groups go crazy...
 
#4..Yes and no...some of the chambers I have had...especially the one in my 30-06 Ultra-Comp...and my 243 Ultra Varmint 24" barrels...were extremely good..my 30-06UC was under 1/4"...and from what mitchell has told me the 243 is the same...both of these barrels I lapped...but both chambers were concentric..
 
#5 I too have seen some real sloppy bores and chambers on some military rifles...and I have seen some sloppy chambers on a few friends handi's...but most of them are older models...most of the new ones are concentric...just chambered with excessive throat/leade dimensions...so...to me...I can't and won't accept doing this by hand.....nor can I recommend doing it this way... on a good chamber.......and I know of no-one who has the dexterity to gauge a few thousandths difference by hand...let alone .006"-.010" as some folks have gotten ...
 
I know some folks don't agree...even a few so-called experts that should know better..but most of the real gunsmiths I know tell a different story...and here's something even those that disagree can't get around...PO Ackley agreed as well and wrote about...funny isn't it...


Take Care my Friend  
 
 
Mac

[Mac11700]

It's interesting to me that a when a professional appears on the forum to clear up a question SS and Mac are sure they know better.  Better check your facts boys.

What's even more interesting to me is you and Riflebuilder having the same IP address and the same amount of post wow...what's the chances of that  .. :roll:

Mac

[lik2hunt]

Man!  :roll: Every time this subject comes up it turns into a big argument. Give it a rest guys! Let the guy have his fun.

[.308]

Mac,

Two questions and I'm done with this thread, seems you've taken it over anyway. You can do that you're the moderator.

1) Do you own or have you read 'Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders: Volume 1' by P.O. Ackley? If so did you read the chapter on Headspace? And if you have did you believe what he said or do you agree with FredM when he told someone on another 'infamous' thread on this same subject, that Ackley was "wrong?" This inquiring mind wants to know.

2) Have you ever admitted publicly on this forum that you were in error? Have you ever disagreed with someone who challenged what you said without sarcasm? I know you're the moderator and can do that, but is it necessary to belittle a person just because you disagree with them, that's not very accomodating or friendly? That's easy. It takes more courage to admit you're wrong, when you are wrong.

Now that's all I have to say to you sir on any subject. If by some miracle I am allowed to stay here, I will not be a problem for you, I'll just keep in contact with my friends. Good day.

My best to you, sir.

Lik2hunt, you're right of course it turns into an argument, with no end in sight. And yes I am having my fun with my upgraded toy. Take care...

[mitchell]

 You can do that you're the moderator.

boy someone's feeling like  smart A today.

anyone can voice their opinion here if they want to moderator or not.

[.308]

boy someone's feeling like  smart A today.

No Mitch I ain't feeling quite that good. I'm sure you'll understand when you're older. If I were your age I'd be out chasing some young philly instead. What's going on here on this thread is what bunch of old f--ts with too much time on their hands do when they ain't like you and mostly do what you could be doing it in their 'daydreams'. :shock:  

Mitch, go catch you a young hellcat, it's a lot more fun than staring at your monitor, son. You can come back to this when you're older like me.  You're only young once. Don't waste it. That's my advice, take it or leave it. :wink:  All in jest, all in jest young man.

[mitchell]

boy someone's feeling like  smart A today.

No Mitch I ain't feeling quite that good. I'm sure you'll understand when you're older. If I were your age I'd be out chasing some young philly instead. What's going on here on this thread is what bunch of old f--ts with too much time on their hands do when they ain't like you and mostly do what you could be doing it in their 'daydreams'. :shock:  

Mitch, go catch you a young hellcat, it's a lot more fun than staring at your monitor, son. You can come back to this when you're older like me.  You're only young once. Don't waste it. That's my advice, take it or leave it. :wink:  All in jest, all in jest young man.

sex isn't everything 308, besides shooting has got me out of two relationships already i don't know what i would do without it. besides beating them off with a stick shooting is the best way i've found to keep the girls off me for a few minutes.

[myarmor]

 Aye, a man needs a little peace sometimes. And the ladies don't usually enjoy firearms. Peace be had my friend :toast: I agree


I am not trying to stir up any thing that hasn't been, all I am saying is that perhaps look at it from a Moderators point of view. This site gets a LOT of traffic. As Mac has stated he just wants to make sure that no potiential dangerous information is kept in it. Weither or not for a fact you firearm is safe, is within your hands. You reload for it. You took it upon yourself to do this procedure. Is it right for everyone?  I certainly hope a novice doesn't try it. All that is being stated and emphesized is the need for safety and caution. From all of us here, we don't want anyone to get hurt, or anyone that is not skilled trying this and making a small mishap and the rifle blowing up in their face. Thats the biggest concern over this matter and one that Mac and Greybeard were trying to convey.
Safety first-if we agree or not, is a personal choice. But we all agree that we don't want anyone getting hurt from information that could sound misleading
-Aaron

[Tenxalibi]

What's even more interesting to me is you and Riflebuilder having the same IP address and the same amount of post wow...what's the chances of that  .. :roll:

Mac

Amazing more than one person uses a computer at the same address!!!!
I told Fred not to waste his time here, should have took my own advice, now I will.

Final note: Read Ackley, Vol. 1 page 151 and following.   It will answer all questions and put an end to this "discussion."

[Mac11700]

What's even more interesting to me is you and Riflebuilder having the same IP address and the same amount of post wow...what's the chances of that  .. :roll:

Mac

Amazing more than one person uses a computer at the same address!!!!
I told Fred not to waste his time here, should have took my own advice, now I will.

Final note: Read Ackley, Vol. 1 page 151 and following.   It will answer all questions and put an end to this "discussion."

Finding interesting facts isn't alluding to anything...and I certainly hope you can understand that.If you have taken offence..I do apologize..


308 your intiteled to post here as much as anyone else...just because we don't see eye to eye on things means absolutely nothing...and discussing things or debating things is a generally accepted form of communications...to answer your quetion..Yes..I have made mistakes before...and I have owned up to them when I have found out that I was wrong...and I will always do that...to help keep the peace...I don't think anyless of anyone here because of anything that has been posted I don't take it personally...and I think you and everyone else here is are great bunch of people..

So...to Fred and all the rest..if I have seemed out of line or have offened you....I apologize...I'll step down as moderator here if that is what it takes to make anyone realize I truely mean this...

Mac

[jeff223]

this has been a good read for sure

my only question is?
should i rechamber my 30-30 barrel or not?

[myarmor]

Lord, I say just buy a 308 or 30-06 barrel and forget about it

[mitchell]

this has been a good read for sure

my only question is?
should i rechamber my 30-30 barrel or not?

you kill me  

[jason280]

which was intentional flaming

No, let me correct you.  "Intentional flaming" is constantly berating two threads, especially when neither of you even own a gun chambered for the cartridge.    Personally, and I may even be speaking for .308, I am sick of hearing all the negative attitudes toward this conversation. More to the point, I am tired of hearing supposed "factual" information from a bunch of folks who have little to no experience with the cartridge in question.  Last I checked, the only person even with a rifle chambered for the AI is .308 himself, yet quite a few people have been preaching their sermon with only theoretical information (and pushing it off as solid fact).


You are a moderator, and you should handle yourself a little better than this.   If you honestly have some actual experience to offer to these threads, please do so.  Otherwise, keep the attitudes to yourself!

[Graybeard]

My, my but a lot of folks are letting emotions over rule logic here. Geez guys it's a discussion not a life or death issue. No need for anyone to get mad cuz someone else doesn't agree with you. Heck I have some Moderators that me and them hardly ever agree on things. But they are still here and still moderators. As long as no GBO rules are blatantly violated it's all good and just a discussion among folks with different albeit at times strong opinions.


I do tend to err on the side of caution. Partly because it's my site and feel a tad responsible not to let obviously unsafe stuff be posted if it comes to my attention. Partly because I've held in my hands a gun that came from together to apart. It's NOT a fun experience and if I can prevent just one of you from having a similar experience it's worth the aggravation and effort.



The .30-30 AI is a pet peeve of mine, that's why I dwell on it so much I guess. I've owned two both TC Contender barrels. The first was rechambered by some unknown to me gunsmith before the barrel came to me. It was NOT done correctly even tho the previous owner who sold it to me assured me it was. The rim recess was deeped too much. The barrel never performed well and the accuracy I got was poor. Even with ammo supplied with the barrel loaded by the previous owner it never got the accuracy or velocity claimed.

The second was a factory barrel from the TC Custom Shop and it worked nicely. Was accurate and did what it was supposed to. But still load data is sparse and none of it pressure tested. The data I see floating around the internet on the round scares me. I've measured case volume before and after fire forming to the AI configuration. No way is the increase enough to justify the added powder too much of the data suggests.

Can you safely rechamber a .30-30 to an AI in a Handi or TC? Perhaps if you know what you're doing and are careful as Fred stated. Can anyone do it? Dunno, I doubt it. Some folks can't walk and chew chewing gum at the same time. Folks like that have no business trying it.

It's not as much that it's hard to do as that it is easy to do it wrong if great care is not taken. Cutting the rim recess too deep is very easy to do but controllable if done correctly. Will the resulting chamber truly be an AI as defined by Parker O. Ackely? Not as I understand it. Will it work? Probably and if the rim recess isn't cut too deeply will perhaps even work very well.

But then when it's done you still have a round for which you have no load data and which doesn't do what most claim it will at sane pressures. So why not just trade barrels to get a .308 or .30-06 since the NEF will take both. The Contender will not which is why I wanted one in it. I'm less incline to dismiss other rechambers than this particular one. It's just one I feel is too often done for the wrong reasons and then loaded unsafely afterwards. Therefore this one rechamber is a pet peeve of mine.

So...to Fred and all the rest..if I have seemed out of line or have offened you....I apologize...I'll step down as moderator here if that is what it takes to make anyone realize I truely mean this...

I see no need for you to step down as Moderaator Mac. If we can't discuss matters like this as adults and without name calling or personal attacks then we're letting emotions and not logic rule our decisions and discussions. Everyone is free to express an opinion. No reason why we all need to agree on this or any other matter. But adults don't take their ball and go home over such piddling matters.

To the best of my knowledge we do not have the world's foremost authority on any one particular matter posting here at GBO. I've never claimed to be on any given subject and don't think Mac has either. I do have about 50 years of active shooting and hunting behind me and nearly 40 years of reloading experience  behind me. So I do have some experience to form opinions and have done so. Some of them I hold quite strongly and express them that way. Don't make me always right but then it don't make me always wrong either. I figure that each of you with variations in the lenght of your experiences fall into the same categories.

So let's cool the emotions and just discuss it like adults. And just remember, we don't all have to agree even when the conversation is done.

[bladerunner]

I agree with Mac and graybeard.....info on this site is read by many people....experts,novices and everyone in between...safety should be everyones foremost concern..some people will try a project based only on a forum (I agree that they shouldn't,but some will)so you have to be careful what you let pass as Gosphel...the people that truly want a 30-30AI are gonna do it anyway,they should check with QUALIFIED gunsmiths before undergoing such a project.....308,you already have it,test it and let us know the results,I,for one,am VERY interested at this point (I'm not gonna do it,I just wanna see the outcome at this point)  :grin:  Jason,if you want to do it and you know how GO FOR IT!!! it doesn't matter what ANYONE says,you're going to do it if you've got your mind made up,anyway...I sincerely believe that most here are trying to HELP,not aggitate or annoy...take what you like and leave the rest  

but all in all......this has been a FUN and HILARIOUS read    :-D  :-D  :-D

[.308]

My last post on this thread I promise.

besides beating them off with a stick shooting is the best way i've found to keep the girls off me for a few minutes.

You missed my point, my young friend. It ain't always gonna be like that. Is my message. I knew when I wrote that, it might get the younger members stirred up.   No offense to any of you.  All in Jest.

And my young friends what you're seeing here is what happens when a Missouri Tiger tangles with a Georgia Bulldog or vice versa. I was gonna say Missouri Mule and a Georgia Hillbilly, but that wouldn't have been polite, so I used the U of M and UGA mascots instead.  

Don't fret this thread has run it's course and if it don't disappear into hyper space everything will be back to normal real soon. People fight and most times make up. :wink:  :grin:  

BTW, Myarmor I have a .308 and an '06, didn't want or need another one of either.

Yes jeff223 I bet it has been a good read for some.  

Sorry if I've offended anyone. I know I've said some things that not everyone agrees with, but at least I've tried to be polite even when I disagree. That's been my point for my last few posts on this thread. It's alright to disagree, but at least try to be friendly too. I think it would be in everyone's best interest, especially G/B's. He and his sponsors and we as potential customers are part of what keeps this site going. Every time someone leaves here for whatever reason, there goes a potential customer.  :money: Take care all.

[Mac11700]

which was intentional flaming

No, let me correct you.  "Intentional flaming" is constantly berating two threads, especially when neither of you even own a gun chambered for the cartridge.    Personally, and I may even be speaking for .308, I am sick of hearing all the negative attitudes toward this conversation. More to the point, I am tired of hearing supposed "factual" information from a bunch of folks who have little to no experience with the cartridge in question.  Last I checked, the only person even with a rifle chambered for the AI is .308 himself, yet quite a few people have been preaching their sermon with only theoretical information (and pushing it off as solid fact).


You are a moderator, and you should handle yourself a little better than this.   If you honestly have some actual experience to offer to these threads, please do so.  Otherwise, keep the attitudes to yourself!

Jason:

If you do a search on my post on previous 30-30 AI threads on this forum..you will see that I do have actual hands-on experiance with these cartridges...and while it is true I haven't loaded for a Handi rifle in it...I have in 4 other rifles to be exact..so..I can talk the talk so-to-speak with those that have..and since I do extensive reloading for all of my Handi's I can comment on that as well.How many 30-30 AI's have you ever loaded for?I know you have said you do a-lot of reloading for other cartridges..but I don't remember if you have done any reloading for a AI or not... Granted..while all of the 30-30 AI's I have experiance with have been for my family members...I am the one who did all the reloading, testing,sighting in,cleaning,refinishing the stocks,adding new recoil pads,getting thea barrel re crowned when it was used as a walking stick and the multitude of other little things for them on them...I am truely sorry if you don't think that qualifies me to make my comments on yours or this post...As to your saying I am berating these 2 threads...nothing is futher from the truth...I have absolutly nothing against what you and 308 are doing...my problem is more in the regards to the terminology being banterd about...and the lack of understanding the differences between a true AI cartridge and a Improved cartridge...nothing is wrong with doing either of them...there just has to be some precautions taken on fireforming the loads and the usage of full factory loads in 1 as compared to the other..and that's about it...

308:

And my young friends what you're seeing here is what happens when a Missouri Tiger tangles with a Georgia Bulldog or vice versa. I was gonna say Missouri Mule and a Georgia Hillbilly, but that wouldn't have been polite, so I used the U of M and UGA mascots instead. Cool

  ...that's ok partner...I've been called a-lot worse and mule would at times be very appropriate...I am a Missourian...and I do adhere the saying..." Show Me"...most of the time...    

Bill:

I see no need for you to step down as Moderator Mac. If we can't discuss matters like this as adults and without name calling or personal attacks then we're letting emotions and not logic rule our decisions and discussions. Everyone is free to express an opinion. No reason why we all need to agree on this or any other matter. But adults don't take their ball and go home over such piddling matters.

Thank You,...I appreciate that and I agree... :agree:

Mac

[tom barthel]

My question is who did the rechambering.  Who is responsible if it was done wrong.  If you play with matches and get burned, whose fault is it.  If anyone doesn't like a certian caliber,then, don't get one.  I rechambered my .30-30 to AI.  I'm pleased with it, AND AM GLAD 308 IS PLEASED WITH HIS.  I do agree the nay sayers should have kept their arguments in the PMs.
   
DONE IS DONE.  WHY ARGUE AND SNIPE AT EACH OTHER?
 
Cool off and wish him well.
 
Take care and God bless.
 
Tom

[safetysheriff]

Found this on another forum, just so everyone can see the difference tween the AI cartridge and the original in the middle.....

tim,

greetings.  

i think that although somebody is claiming to have pictured a couple AI's with a standard cartridge in the middle, that's not what we're looking at.    the "genuine" AI would have the neck/shoulder juncture down where that juncture is located on the standard .30-30 -- minus approx' .004".  that's how there would be a 'crush' fit established between the AI chamber and the standard cartridge if it was being used.

this is in total agreement with GrayBeard's ascertions re: the host of alleged AI's that are out there.

take care,

ss'

[Leftoverdj]

Better give it up, SS.

www.stevespages.com/jpg/cd3030ackleyimproved.jpg
Ol' P.O. knew the difference between a rimmed and a rimless case and what you could do with each.

[safetysheriff]

.308'
please, check to see that -- by using that new reamer -- that you do not have an excessive headspace condition for the use of original .30-30's you want to fire in that chamber.  
it's possible to overdo it!
remember, safety first.
best regards,
ss'

Most of us know that the .30-30 is a rimmed case and that you cannot affect the headspace without cutting into the rim recess.

leftovers'

i think you are in over your head.  

you said, "you cannot affect the headspace without cutting into the rim recess."   that's not the point, is it?    the point is, you DON'T WANT TO AFFECT THE HEADSPACE and you don't want an AI chamber that is capable of  allowing a sidewall separation/etc.. with standard .30-30 ammo'.      If you remember, that was part of the premise behind properly forming an Ackley Improved chamber........using either original-chamber or Improved-chamber ammo' in one rifle.  

graybeard seems to think in his post below yours that your assumption is way off and that " the headspace can't help but be off"!   i'm thinkin' that graybeard has seen some of these rimmed-cartridge reamers run too far into a barrel even though You seem to think "Most of us know......"  

"Most" is not good enough.      

........and graybeards concern re: problems arising is actually justified in MOST CASES, though i doubt that this is Always a failure without barrel setback.  

I know of two Ruger M77 MkII's with such tight chambers in 7mm Rem' mag' that they could probably be improved without barrel setback.   it's amazing how tight one of them is!    

the real problem with a project like this, as graybeard said, is that it is possible to develop unsafe headspace....with various / disturbing results.  

thanks for stopping by, dj'.

take care,

ss'    :wink:

PS to the group at large: the original intent of an AI' chamber was to create a 'crush' fit of regular/standard ammo' in a firearm so modified.  that would be allowed by the sharp Ackley shoulder pressing against the neck-shoulder juncture of the original chambering's ammo.   that slight pressure would actually eliminate one source of headspace problems.   the Improved chamber is obviously a little bit on the 'short' side of a SAAMI spec'.   that's why Ackley did barrel setbacks AND achieved good results.

.308

this is the post that should have really started you crying!   this is the one that would be a contradiction in a big way if you hadn't been working with a rimmed cartridge of relatively low working pressure and if you hadn't assured us -- in between my other two posts -- that you'd been careful to not cut into the area where the rim headspaces.  

i'm glad to see you've gotten a good taste of a moderator, in a gentlemanly manner, standing his ground and refuting some of the assumptions made here.  i'm glad to see that Gray Beard backed him up.   the 'poster' with the comment about crushing the rim .004" can take this as meant for him/her, too.    

if you come back on this site with another AI project dealing with a true high-powered-rifle caliber -- in  a rimless cartridge -- like the .270 Win or   the .308, etc. --we'll probably let you know from the get-go what we think.   you worked on a "black-powder" cartridge that just happens to be loaded to low pressures with smokeless.   next time i think we'll take you task up front in the discussion.  

have a nice life.

SS'  

ps: please don't send me any more phony/friendly pm's.  i'm suspect right now of your orientation......

[safetysheriff]

Better give it up, SS.

www.stevespages.com/jpg/cd3030ackleyimproved.jpg
Ol' P.O. knew the difference between a rimmed and a rimless case and what you could do with each.

leftovers'

this time You are right!   although Ackley disliked short necks and would seemingly be aware of the dangers of giving wildcatters and others too much stretch for a shoulder -- even on a rimmed cartridge -- he did move the neck/shoulder juncture forward on this one.   although the cartridge can be hot-rodded to significant velocity gains, it is a significant stretch of the brass compared to some of his other creations.

my source is elsewhere.....so i looked at a couple of them.....but you are right on this one.

SS'

[safetysheriff]

quickd'

my mistake.  i was reading about the .30-30 in a Gun Digest from some years ago -- but was not looking at a picture of Ackley's .30-30 Imp'.   it was a pic' of another Improvement he'd done with a .219 that i hadn't looked at for a long time.    i guess my memory needs a little refreshing.

sorry about that,

ss'

[quickdtoo]

Thanks SS, but it really doesn't make too much difference whether the pic accurately depicts an AI cartridge, it just gives those of us that don't know what an AI is, a look at what they might look like, that's why I posted it. :wink: