BATFE still on the warpath?

[Questor]

It  looks like there were a number of shocking cases of abuse of authority by the BAT/BATF about 10 or 12 years ago. For example, dressing in plain clothes and raiding a gun collector's house. The collector thought he was being attacked by crooks, defended himself, and was shot in the head.

Are they still doing stuff like that? If not, what put the fear of God in them?

[Mikey]

I think it was the klintons getting their asses booted out and the Republicans being elected.  If you will recall, most of that crap was carried on during the herr and frau klinton show.  Once G.W. got into office I believe the BATF got reassigned somewhere else or under some other department to control them.  

Let's not forget that it wasn't just gun dealers and batfholes in drag - it was Ruby Ridge Arkansas and Waco, Texas where the blood flowed a bit too thick for most Americans and with batf hands too red with blood to deny culpability most Americans saw the time for change.  Roust mit das klintonfeurer.  Mikey.

[Graybeard]

They are still running legitimate dealers out of business as fast as they can. They are still harrassing them to the max extent possible. They stayed at my local dealer's place for nearly a month and then took all his records and still haven't returned them. He tried to object but they told him he really didn't wanna do that if he knew what was good for him. Said the records were theirs not his and they could take them any time and keep them as long as they wanted.

I think they are using the dealer records to compile an illegal database on gun owners. This database WILL BE USED one day to come after them. Or maybe they are just trying to figure out how many guns I really have bought from him.  

[Questor]

That's too bad (for all of us) GB. It's why I asked the question. Usually, once a government agency starts abusing its power, it doesn't stop and only keeps getting worse.

By the way, the latest abuse I've seen here in the northern midwest is the establishment of speed traps in the guise of zones where the speed limit is increased, but is enforced tightly.  For example, the speed limit is raised from 65 to 70 and the cops start writing tickets at 73.  The company I work for has Iowa as a client and we have seen the projected revenues from this stunt. And it is just a revenue oriented stunt.  Millions of dollars worth of NEW initiatives (i.e., spending) is projected to be paid for by this mechanism.  The essential problem with it is that these zones appear no different than any other zone that people drive on. People use their ordinary rules of the road, then are ticketed when they enter one of these zones.  It's an abuse.

[Redhawk1]

The bad thing is, we as voters put these A**clowns in the position to do this.  :evil:

That is why I like to make privet gun purchases when at all possible. No record there.  :wink:

[Graybeard]

That is why I like to make privet gun purchases when at all possible. No record there.

If you think that's gonna matter come round up day then you don't understand the technology they already possess. They can fly a helocopter over your neighborhood and tell how man guns are in each house and where. Burying them won't help either. They can see them in the ground just as well as in your house.

Think they've gotten come in thru a hail of fire to get them? Wrong. They can sit outside and look into your house and tell if you're up and active, down and asleep and if you have a gun in hand or nearby. If in hand they can take you out from outside with a .50 cal.

If our worse fears come true and they come for the guns I just don't see anyway we can hold them off.

[rockbilly]

:roll: Mikey, Ruby Ridge is in Idaho.  

As a law abiding citizen who has studied the incidents at both Waco and Ruby Ridge, I have concluded that there are only two people to blame for the flow of blood.  David Koresh at Waco, and Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge.

As I see it, both cases could have been avoided if the the yellow bellied Koresh and Weaver had stepped forward and faced the music.  By their actions, they defied law enforcement and really left little or no options for the agencies involved.

To me it is simple, if a cop attempts to stop you in your vehicle, do you run?  No, most law abiding citizens stop.  So the cop says you were speeding, doing 65 in a 40mph zone.  You know full well you were only doing 35MPH.  Do you refuse the ticket, shoot at the cop.  I think not, you accept the ticket, maybe muttering a few choice words under your breath, you seek legal assistance and face the judge.  If  the punks at Waco and Ruby Ridge had stepped out like men, rather than hide behind women and children, then most likely all would be alive today.

I am not saying BTAF are saints, but simply pointing out the fact that we all have responsibilities, Koresh and Weaver did not accept the responsibility for their actions.  

I would not be able to face myself knowing that just surrendering would have taken my family out of danger.

[Greybeard]

Clearly you are NOT aware of the FACTS in either case.

Randy Weaver was tricked into sawing off two shotgun barrels by federal authorities. That itself a violation of law. It's called entrapment.

He was sent papers of the court date which was one month AFTER the date in which the government intended to try his case. This was again done intentionally so he wouldn't show. He couldnt'. He had no idea it was time to show.

Then because he didn't they came and surrounded his place again without his knowledge. They shot his dog and his son killing both without announcing their presence or who they were.

Then and ONLY then did the siege begin that eventually led to the shooting of his wife.

Sorry this one can't be blamed on him. The courts just happened to agree.



The situation in Waco was nearly as badly against the government. If they wanted to serve warrants on him all they had to do was come up to the door in day time and knock.

But no they slipped in under cover of darkness, climbed in a second story windown without announcing who they were or why they were there. They fired first.

In both cases the government acted illegally and the death of innocent civilians, US CITIZENS who had done no wrong were killed.

[Redhawk1]

That is why I like to make privet gun purchases when at all possible. No record there.

If you think that's gonna matter come round up day then you don't understand the technology they already possess. They can fly a helocopter over your neighborhood and tell how man guns are in each house and where. Burying them won't help either. They can see them in the ground just as well as in your house.

Think they've gotten come in thru a hail of fire to get them? Wrong. They can sit outside and look into your house and tell if you're up and active, down and asleep and if you have a gun in hand or nearby. If in hand they can take you out from outside with a .50 cal.

If our worse fears come true and they come for the guns I just don't see anyway we can hold them off.

I am not looking for a gunfight, I just want to know I will still have something if they ever decited to take them.

[Graybeard]

Oh I understand. I'm just saying that buying guns that there is no yellow sheet on isn't going to accomplish that end. Perhaps if you had a very remote place to hide them in an area with soil heavily laced with iron ore or maybe lead it "might" work.

But with the technology they have today you're not fooling them by not buying at a dealer.

[rockbilly]

Regardless of the circumstances, I still maintain all they had to do was step out and face the music.  Both were given ample opportunity to do so. One of prudent judgement would agree 40 days was enough time at Waco, and Weaver had several opportunities to step up to the plate before the shooting started.

Bottom line, if every criminal, or person accused of committing a crime were allowed to act in the same manner, then our law and order, as it is, would be eliminated.  Everyone with a warrant for their arrest would barricade themselves behind their woman and kids and resist being taken.

I think both of these men were smart enough to know they would face the judge at some point, why act like a fool and resist?

In no way do I belive that the government was totally correct in their actions, but I think Koresh and Weaver were totally wrong by resisting arrest.  We are taught from day one to respect the law, and that once they come after you, you will be taken.

[Paladin]

laws keep us from total choas. I try to respect the laws, I just don't  trust the people that enforce them.

[williamlayton]

Clearly, Ruby Ridge and Waco were/are anomalies. There were individuals involved which had need of being enforced because of their activities.
Could it have been handled better by the agencies involved? Yes!
Could the situation have been averted by the parties involved? YES!
I had my lic. taken in '92 by an agent of the BATF because I had not used it for the purpose it was issued--in other words I had not used it.
I thought it was harsh-I especially thought it harsh because the agent would not answer any questions. I still think it harsh.
Do I understand the reasons now? Yes, and I must partially agree with the decision under the laws, as I was not starting a business. I had considered such when I got the Lic. but decided against it later.
Yes, those folks are rude, as rude as SOME police officers are when issuing tickets. Yes they can/could take a different approach.
My across the street neighbor for about three years was a secret service person. He was not approachable as a neighbor, standoffish and kind of pompous--intimidating or the attempt at being such, and I guess that is the approach they want these folks to take.
GB and Rockabilly are both correct in my judgement, the evidence being prejudiced in both directions.
Blessings

[myronman3]

now i agree with g.b. on statements on who is to blame in waco and ruby ridge.  but...

we use our technology in war.  all of it.  now if the us military cant disarm  the iraqi population,  how do you think they are going to handle the U.S. population?  simple, they cant.  

i dont trust the gov.   but many of you are making the single most common mistake that can be made.  you are thinking way too high of the military and their capabilies.  wasnt all that long ago that i was serving in one of the elite units that many dream of.  first,  it aint all it is cracked up to be- it is hard.   second,  if there was techonology like that,  i surely would have seen it.   sure,  there are ways to see through walls,  but like everything else,  it has it's limitations.  

the civilian population being armed is the last line of defense.  our founding fathers were brilliant.   never underestimate the guerrilla warrior.   a group of four determined people can shread a combat arms company (up to 120 men) in very little time if you know what you are doing.  

people get comfortable with the way things are in the world, thinking our mighty military can protect us.  the day is at hand where they can not.  with our borders hemmoraging illegals and God knows who else,  surely there are terrorist cells here already.  ya' ll best be ready.   cause when she hits,  the whole works is going to go to hell.

[CJ]

myronman3,
  My thoughts exactly regarding the tech. Walls can be seen through, weapons can be detected, but not in a broad sweep yet. It can do amazing things, but not quite yet. But todays scicence fiction is tommorrows science.

[rockbilly]

:roll:  :roll: Myronman3,  If we are not careful the Mexicans will take this country with one of the best weapons there is.....the ballot box.

It is no secret, Mr Fox is pushing to get as many mexicans as possible into the US, legal or illegal, get them registered as voters, and change laws thereby permitting more Mexicans and an eventual take over. Sad thing is, many "red blooded" Americans are helping him by assisting, hiring, and hiding illegals.

Think it can't work?  According to a news article I read today, the Mexican population in the US is growing by approximately 1.7 million each year.  It is estimated that by 2020 the majority will be Mexican (or South American).  Once that happens, only God can guess what will happen to this Country.  If you look back, history shows that internal strife, and problems, were the primary cause for the down fall of many great nations.  Could that be happening to us?

[myronman3]

Think it can't work? According to a news article I read today, the Mexican population in the US is growing by approximately 1.7 million each year. It is estimated that by 2020 the majority will be Mexican (or South American). Once that happens, only God can guess what will happen to this Country. If you look back, history shows that internal strife, and problems, were the primary cause for the down fall of many great nations. Could that be happening to us?

i am all over that situation.  no arguement here.    put the screws to the politicians now.   bush is feeling the heat,  the key is to hold their feet to the fire.

[oso45-70]

rockbilly

Obviously you had the patch on the wrong eye during the Ruby Ridge and Waco incedent, Some more studying would help.

By the same token you are right on as far as the( Mexicans) taking over the USA, They have never recognizied the Guadalupe Hidalgo treaty. The common people of Mexico belive that the lower part of Texas, New Mexico Arizona and Kalifornia still belong to Mexico and they are slowly taking them states back.............Joe...........

[briarpatch]

I would imagine the batfe and the myrid of other groups that have been established to (protect the masses)   laugh about as hard as I do when I hear someone talk how nobody is getting their guns.  
You have to remember, men have been handling men for thousands of years and they have it down well. Think of all the nations that have millions  of people starving or worse. It is because the few in power have the armies and the police they use so effectively. Make no mistake the law enforcement officers on here would be right there when the order  is given to take by force or other wise any thing they are told to get and the military would be no different.
A lot of you will be jumping around like a carpenter that just hit his thumb but just go to your history books and you will be amazed at what you will learn. Those in government have.

[myronman3]

again, see my post above.   the technology may exist to bring in to one location,  but even when raiding drug dens,  they have a problem getting all the guns.    there is no way said techonology could be used wide spread.    

we use our technology in war. all of it. now if the us military cant disarm the iraqi population, how do you think they are going to handle the U.S. population? simple, they cant.

and i think many of you underestimate the spirit of the average american.  i aint talking about the handful of nutjobs the media gives all the coverage to.  i am talking about your friends and neighbors.  think for a second about all the people you know.   americans aint gutless peasents who wont stand up for themselves.    i give you the american military as a shining example.   one look no further to see what amercans are made of.  

i took orders as well as anyone ever did.  but if anyone would have come to me,  and ordered me to disarm my countrymen,  it wouldnt fly.  

hardline leftists and hardline rightwingers need to get out there and take a walk.   breathe some fresh air and quit dwelling on all the negative possibiles.   it is good to keep your eyes open for trouble, and take action when you see it coming,  but let's keep it real.

[rockbilly]

  oso45-70.  I guess you are right, I must have had the patch on the wrong eye, but I got it right now............the next time a cop tries to stop me for speeding, I am gonna run like hell, get to the house and barricade myself behind the wife and her poodle.  If I do they will just go away and leave me be.........I know it is so, that's what you implied. :roll:  :roll:  :roll:

Nuff said about Waco/Ruby Ridge, we all have our opinions, and ain't nobody changing mine..............

[unspellable]

The Ruby Ridge and waco incidents were predicted years in advance by people who noted that the BATF were turning into cowboys.

In Weaver's case, the Feds started shooting first without Weaver even knowing they were there.  This after they had the place staked out for some days and had ample time to think up a strategy far less likely to cause bloodshed.  It wasn't for nothing that Idaho brought a murder case against one of the agents.

At Waco, they had a bogus warrent when they staked the place out.  Koresh frequently left the place so they could have picked him up in town without incident.

I'd say that in both cases the Feds went in looking for a gun fight and were willing to start one when the other guy didn't.

[Old Griz]

:cb2: I've heard that the BATFE is having a fun time down in New Orleans. All of those stolen guns might keep a couple of them busy for a while.

[LJ Barrero]

Graybeard,

If they have that technology you are saying, then how come they don't use that to fing the insurgents/terrorists in Iraq? :-D

LJB

[jro45]

I agree 100% with G.B.  The Clintons were working with the U.N. to try and get all the guns when the Pres got involved with Monica. The Clintons
started this mess. Remember those black hilecopters that were supose to be flying around.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Wow...haven't heard some of this stuff since I lived in Idaho!  Let me guess, some of you have seen the black helicoters, too! :eek:

  For all of you who KNOW the government will try to take all of our guns...when are they planning on doing it?  I have been hearing this for over half my life and still don't see it coming.  Those "evil" democrats have controlled the legislative, judiciary, and executive branches at the same time in the past; yet no action was taken.  WHEN IS THE SKY GOING TO FALL?

Jim

[unspellable]

ALL governments plan to take arms from the people.

NO exceptions.

That's why the founding fathers put the second amendment in the constitution.

[Nanuk]

WOW....We are on a journey of sight and sound.....

[WNY_Whitetailer]

WOW....We are on a journey of sight and sound.....

Ain't that the truth... :roll: