Author Topic: Help with 38-55 HiWall (Read 1035 times)

Mik1 · « **on:** December 13, 2005, 08:21:37 PM »

I recently acquired a 38-55 Hiwall and would like to cast/load for target application. Has any one out there had any experience with a good cast bullet design/weight for this type of rifle. The bore is .379 and has a 1:18 twist. Thanks in advance for any and all input.

Ray Newman · « **Reply #1 on:** December 14, 2005, 07:15:33 AM »

Is this M1885 High Wall an original or reproduction?

There is a difference between the original .38-55 Ballard/Winchester chambers & the shorter modern .38-55 chambers.

Make sure you acquire the proper length brass. Some brass, stamped as .38-55, is actually too short & designed for the .375 W round.

Too short a case w/ BP is not a good thing.

Buffalo Arms has the appropriate length brass:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm?viewfrom=13&catid=36&step=2

What powder are you going to load--BP or White/Nitro (smokeless)?

From what I have read & observed, the heavier bullets (approx. 275-300 grns) shoot better in the .38-55.

ShortStake · « **Reply #2 on:** December 14, 2005, 12:55:29 PM »

Ray,

Your comment on shorter .38-55 chambers has me confused.

"original .38-55 Ballard/Winchester chambers & the shorter modern .38-55 chambers"

The SAAMI Specifications for .38-55 Winchester/Ballard chambers call for a case length of 2.085/2.065.

The problem with the SAAMI specification is the very front of chamber does not allow sufficient diameter to chamber a loaded round with a cast bullet that matches the bore diameter. SAAMI specifications call for a .3770/.3740 diameter bullet, bore diameter .373/.375 and groove diameter .379/.381.

That coupled with the modern day available factory .38-55 brass being made from .30-30 which is 2.0395/2.0195. Consequently the factory .38-55 brass is too short for the SAAMI specification chamber by .045".

Having just disposed of a Marlin 336CB in .38-55 and my experience has been loading cast bullets to function in the SAAMI specification barrel is difficult to say the least.

Have heard of many that have used a .375 Winchester chamber reamer to clean up the .38-55 SAAMI Spec chamber to make the loaded round more compatable with the bore/groove diameters.

The SAAMI specification for .375 Winchester chamber dimensions is .4015/.4035 at the front most diamter vs. .3949/.3969 for the .38-55 Winchester/Ballard.

IMO, The basic reasoning behind Buffalo Arms selling stretched .38-55 brass is to make up the above differences.

Am totally blank on what the current manufacturers are using for .38-55 Winchester/Ballard chambers. But would suspect they are conforming to SAAMI specifications.

Ray Newman · « **Reply #3 on:** December 14, 2005, 05:12:54 PM »

ShortStake: IIRC, the 3 .38-55 Shooters that I knew all had short chambers, & one these was on a Browning Traditional Hunter.

Do you have the SAAMI length specs for the .375W?

ShortStake · « **Reply #4 on:** December 14, 2005, 07:12:13 PM »

Ray,

My SAAMI specification book shows the following lengths for the .375 Winchester.

Chamber length: 2.080/.2.095.

Cartridge (Brass) length: 2.020/2.000.

For comparison the SAAMI specifications for the .38-55 Winchester/Ballard.

Chamber length: 2.1182 (no variance).

Cartridge (Brass) length: 2.085/2.065.

Send me a PM with your snail mail address and I'll forward a copy of these two pages of specifications.

Mik1 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 14, 2005, 08:16:22 PM »

The rifle in question is one of the new special edition 2005 Winchester M1885 HiWalls. I plan on loading black only for this rifle. The chamber measured 2.058. A random Winchester brass measured 2.085.

The other thing that I have heard is that the 1:18 twist will not stabilize the heavier bullets such as the new lyman 335 gr. Has anyone had any experience with how heavy a bullet could be and still stabilize with this twist?

TopperT · « **Reply #6 on:** December 18, 2005, 08:25:37 AM »

Mike I'll let you know as I have the same rifle and want to shoot the .335 lymnan with FFF swiss. Right now I'm having a hell of a time with loads for my H&R Traget Classic's in 38-55 and frankly today I have drawn a blank on trying to chamber the .335 Lyman using typical WW brass at 2.08.
I'm about to have new brass made by Montana Cartridge at the correct 2.12 o/a but right now I'm tinking that the .335 head is causing the brass to expand too far and is streaching the base of the brass, as when I go to chamber a completed round it will not fully chamber and appears to 'hang-up' about 1/16 of an inch from the case rim.
Today I annealed a couple doz. cases all at 2.08. Next I full length resized them. All seemed to be 2.08 o/a and just at .415 to about .420 at the base. .506 o/a on the rim.. EVERY one of these empty cases chambered and ejected properly. ONLY after seating a head did they fail to chamber properly or eject.
Both the Lyman book and the very good reference book that SPG puts out on BPCR shooting, list the correct brass length for the 38-55 at 2.12.... .Lyman also notes a sizing of .379 and SPG .377 for the High Wall. Go figure.
I'm trying to settle at .379 with the .335 grn head and 2.80 overall in the H&R's but this chambering issue is driving me nuts. By they way factory ammo chambers and ejects properly, so I'm now thinking that I may have screwed up ordering my .335's at .379.....anyone have any thoughts?

??

I'm going out for a couple of beers before I break something at the reloading bench. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Ray Newman · « **Reply #7 on:** December 18, 2005, 11:45:50 AM »

TopperT: slug the bore & make a chamber cast. Then compare the measurements of both to your ammunition & bullet dia.

What bullet are you loading? I can't find a Lyman ".335"....

I think the bullet dia. just maybe your problem as you wrote: "ONLY after seating a head did they fail to chamber properly or eject."

By "head", do you mena "bullet"?

TopperT · « **Reply #8 on:** December 18, 2005, 12:55:39 PM »

Yes Ray. I do mean bullet. I'm leaning towards the o/a size of the bullet at .379 being too large. I'll get a sizing die for .377 and see if this works. Thanks for the info.

Ray Newman · « **Reply #9 on:** December 18, 2005, 04:44:55 PM »

Before buying another sizing die, slug the bore.

That way you'll know its dia. & able to putchase the appropriatre dia. sizing die.....

TopperT · « **Reply #10 on:** December 19, 2005, 07:01:51 AM »

Ray, thanks for the input. I think I know how to "slug" the bore (lead pig run thru the bore??) but how do I cast the chamber? Any sites you know of to get this information? I read your posts and envy your knowledge. I'm just beginning to learn this "art" and am leaning towards shooting the H&R over the Winchester as I tend to be a bit hard on things and the Winchester is way too pretty to do duty in the field. So I may sell it. Fact is I have two H&R Target Classics ( I may convert the second to 40-65) and I plan to shoot next June at the "Quigley" with one of the 38-55's (I know I give up a lot but then again............besides I really like the smoothness of the round vis-a-vie recoil)
Any advice on how to do as you have suggested is appreciated. Thanks.

Ray Newman · « **Reply #11 on:** December 19, 2005, 09:01:41 AM »

Chamber cast:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=384&s=1744

I pre-heat the chamber w/ a air dryer & melt the Cerrosafe in a double boiler made from two old tin cans. I bend the top of the can hold the Cerrosafe into a spout & make the pour. To prevent the material from going where it's not wanted, fabricate dams out of children's modeling clay.

Slug the bore:

1-clean bore thoroughly
2-some Shooters apply a very light film of oil to the appropriate sized round ball
3-start the ball into the muzzle
4-drive the ball thru the bore w/ a stout clean rod & jag on the end
(Don't use a wood rood as more often than not a wood rod will break in the bore.)

I have my doubts 'bout sizing a .379" dia. bullet to .377 " dia. w/o distorting the bullet.

As for converting one of the rifles into a .40-65 WCF, are you going to get it re-barrel or re-bored to the larger caliber? I

You mentioned the Quigley match, I could be wrong but given the windy conditions @ the Quigley match, you might be "ballistically" challenged w/ a .40-65. From what I've heard others say, the wind can really blow @ the match.