traditional and pellets

[Muskie Hunter]

I have an old Investarm Spa,made in Italy,50 cal. muzzel loader.Can I use pellet type powder and maybe powerbelt bullets in it like I do my Omega in-line?

[spitpatch]

yep, sure can.

[spitpatch]

yep, sure can.

[captchee]

well im going to have o disagree with spitpatch here and say that depends  on how many you load, what rifle and what  ignition system . I have found flint locks do not seem to care for pellets much LMAO   .

 many of the old companies like CVA ,Junker, markwell gave specific guidelines as to  how heavy of a charge you could use in a barrel . even today  TC has a recommended maximum charge  depending on the rifle . CVA states  110 grains of 2F and recommends reducing  the charge   for 3F. that’s from an old manual I have that came with a CVA kit I purchased back in the  mid 1970’s .

 The problem with pellets  as I see it is this . Each pellet is designed to produce a given pressure rating .  Now you would think doubling that would produce twice the pressure right ?,, sorry  just as with  BP  that rating can often be 21/2 to 3 times what you think . Pick you up a lyman  book on BP , do some reading , study up on your weapon some find out the max recommended load for it . Then study the information on pellets . Another thing to keep in mined is the diameter of the pellet itself, it must fit your barrel properly  or you can find yourself play Russian roulette.
 
  If you decide you must use pellets  have your weapon looked over  real good by a competent gunsmith who knows black powder weapons “ all gun smiths don’t “ .
If it’s a cap lock  pay attention to the nipple threads , they must be like new and well taken care of .  The lock springs must also be  capable of sustaining the pressure or you will get hammer blow back , that’s not good .
 In the end no one can say without looking at your rifle  if its safe to shoot pellets or for that mater safe to shoot .
 In the end its you that must decide . Myself I would not recommend it , that however is  my oppenion . Others will be  have another view

[Muskie Hunter]

Thanks for your inputs on the subject.I think that I will play it safe and just use what I did a few years ago with that rifle.That was a round ball and patch,80 grains of Pyadex,and a cci primer for an impressive group at 50 yards with open sights.I'll keep the pellots and the powerbelts for the Omega.Thanks again.

[spitpatch]

Captchee, I agree with all you said......but he did not ask if I thought it would be a good idea, he just asked if he could do it. I assumed he was aware of the charge rating for both guns. Best Regards Rick

[captchee]

but he did not ask if I thought it would be a good idea, he just asked if he could do it. I assumed he was aware of the charge rating for both guns.

:lol:

 true,, very true
 be safe

[harryo]

Captchee, I agree with all you said......but he did not ask if I thought it would be a good idea, he just asked if he could do it. I assumed he was aware of the charge rating for both guns. Best Regards Rick

This is somewhat ridiculous thinking, isn't it?  I mean, using this logic, someone could ask if they could use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader and you could answer, "yep, sure can.", because they didn't ask if it was a good idea, only if they could do it.  

The correct answer to Muskie Hunter's question is that yes, you can use pellets in a sidelock as long as the volume of the pellets doesn't exceed the maximum rating of the rifle.  For example, if the maximum rating for the rifle is 100 grns Ffg, you can use two, 50 grn pellets.  Pellets do not produce higher breech pressures than loose powder and, in fact, usually produce less pressure.  Breech pressure would be more dependant on the weight and type of projectile used.

Although you can use pellets, you probably won't want to do so because they were really developed for inlines, using 209 primers for ignition, hence the hole down the center of them and the layer of blackpowder which is on the bottom of them, both to aid ignition for inlines.  Because of this, ignition of pellets in sidelocks will be very inconsistant, especially in barrels with a patent breech.  Sidelocks were developed to use blackpowder and blackpowder will give more consistant and positive ignition, in a sidelock, than any sub powder, loose or pelleted.  Also, with pellets, you are locked into preset measurements of your charges.  You can't fine tune loads like you can with loose powder.  Finally, pellets cost 2/3 more than loose powder, so they are substancially more expensive to use.

[captchee]

The correct answer to Muskie Hunter's question is that yes, you can use pellets in a sidelock as long as the volume of the pellets doesn't exceed the maximum rating of the rifle. For example, if the maximum rating for the rifle is 100 grns Ffg, you can use two, 50 grn pellets. Pellets do not produce breech pressures than loose powder and, in fact, usually produce less pressure. Breech pressure would be more dependant on the weight and type of projectile used.

correct me if i am wrong here but i do not believe that  2, 50 grn pellets are equal in pressure to 100 grains of lose powder ?
 with lose powder doubling the charge does not  mean doubling the pressure .  IE according to Lyman a 140 grain charge of 2F yield a LUP of 8500.
 yet a 100 grain charge of 3F yields 11700
so i guess my question would be  do they have the pellets down to where  1 pellets = XXXX and 2 pellets  = 2X (XXXX)?
 it is also my understanding and again i could be wrong here but  i believe that some of the pellets are not designed to crush in the bore hence if they are not of the correct size for the given manufacture the could be unsafe .
 Again can you do this ,, ya a person can do as they like  I however would not recommend it  unless specificity stated so by the manufacture of the pellets and the rifle

[harryo]

correct me if i am wrong here but i do not believe that  2, 50 grn pellets are equal in pressure to 100 grains of lose powder ?

No they are not equal, which is what I said.  A 100 grn charge of two, 50grn Pyrodex pellets usually yields less pressure than a 100 grn charge of Pyrodex RS and a 100 grn charge of Goex Ffg yields even lower pressure.  You apper to have access to the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook and Loading Manual, so if you look in it at the data for a .50 cal, 22", 1:24" twist barrel, you will see this is true in almost all instances, with the only exceptions being when heavy(>395 grn) solid lead conicals were used as projectiles.  Unfortunately, they don't give any data using pellets for any longer barrels but I don't think this trend would change as pressure generally decreases in a longer barrel.


 

with lose powder doubling the charge does not  mean doubling the pressure .  IE according to Lyman a 140 grain charge of 2F yield a LUP of 8500. yet a 100 grain charge of 3F yields 11700

I never inferred that it did and guess I don't understand why comparing pressures of Ffg and Fffg blackpowder have anthing to do with this?

so i guess my question would be  do they have the pellets down to where  1 pellets = XXXX and 2 pellets  = 2X (XXXX)?

No, although if you look at the Lyman data, 2 Pyrodex 50 grn pellets usually produces close to twice the pressure of 1 pellet.


 

it is also my understanding and again i could be wrong here but  i believe that some of the pellets are not designed to crush in the bore hence if they are not of the correct size for the given manufacture the could be unsafe .
 Again can you do this ,, ya a person can do as they like  I however would not recommend it  unless specificity stated so by the manufacture of the pellets and the rifle

Again, I'm not sure what crushing pellets has to do with the original query?  Muskie Hunter said he was used to using pellets in an .50cal inline and wanted to know if he could use the same pellets in a .50cal sidelock.  I assume he doesn't crush them in the inline and wouldn't do so in the sidelock.  I agree that using pellets in the sidelock would not be the wisest thing to do, which is what I said earlier.  Again this is because of ignition problems, not breech pressure.  While 2, 50 grn pellets may not ignite well in a sidelock, they are not unsafe if they do ignite, and the sidelock is rated for at least 100 grns of Ffg or Pyrodex RS.  

By the way, a 50 grn Pyrodex pellet does not weigh 50 grns, it weighs something less.  Hodgdon calls it a 50 grn equivilent, which means it is supposed to perform the same as 50 grns of Pyrodex RS, which I think further illustrates that pellets will not be any more unsafe than the equivilent amount of loose powder, since they are engineered to perform pretty much the same ballistically.

[captchee]

I never inferred that it did and guess I don't understand why comparing pressures of Ffg and Fffg blackpowder have anthing to do with this?

 because granule size and shape have a whole lot to do with the pressure generated  with even black powder . this is why a finer grain has a higher  pressure rating for a lower charge .
 we are also  talking about  a given pellet size . so say a pellet for a 54 being .530 or .535 .
 if the pellet is made for a more modern  weapon say like a CVA inline " just for instance , not saying thats what it is " with a  bore size of .535 and not an older  side lock with   bores being + or .15 to .20 then if that bore is on the larger side ,you have a problem if the pellet does not crush  but stacks with a projectile above it .  Hence you now have created and air space  around the pellets  which is never a good idea in a charge
 IMO this is why manufactures do not recommend them for all BP weapons across the board .



 

so if you look in it at the data for a .50 cal, 22", 1:24" twist barrel, you will see this is true in almost all instances,

 This is according to my book loaded with Goex 3FF not a pellet ? Granted my book is  not the newest  but still not comparable to solid pellet charge .

Lyman data, 2 Pyrodex 50 grn pellets usually produces close to twice the pressure of 1 pellet.

 once again we are not talking "usually" we are talking what do they produce for a given load  and why pellets should not be recommended in  weapons they are not designed for .

 Markwell arms used to recommend no more the 85 grains of 3F in their rifles . for obvious reasons.
Pyrodex  last I read “ only used one horn of the stuff now just for my paper shotgun shells”
recommended reducing the charge by 10 grains  compared to BP
So now thats down to 75 grains ?
 Human nature being what it is  if 2 pellets are good the 3 are better  and  suddenly  pressures of multiple  pellets  become a very responsible  question ..
 After all we are not just talking breech pressure here but   the capability of the nipple to  stay seated with a given charge  . The main spring to be able to hold the hammer without blow back . Even the tumbler and sear  itself to be  able to control that hammer  when and if blow back happens , from coming off the lock and becoming a projectile .
 No mater how you look at it  there are just to many variables concerning  their use   when not recommended by both the weapons manufacture and the pellet manufacture .

Harryo and I “ I think are agreeing  but just for different points of view here .

But what this all bils down to is folks , don’t play the  “he said she said” game  or “usually” anything . Its not just your safety but the safety of those  that may be un lucky enough to be standing around you  when  something bad just happens to take place .
 never use anything in your muzzleloaders that are not specifically stated to be ok in your weapon . Just because something is on the market does not make it safe  especially in older modern weapons .
And though we have not been talking about it .
For the record smokeless powder  is never , ever a good idea in any muzzle loading weapon . “NOTICE” I said any  and  that includes the modern ones supposable designed for it  as there still are some serious questions  concerning them .

 Play it safe , enjoy  BP but  remember  these weapons are not toys  and require the utmost respect .

[harryo]

OK, this is going off in all sorts of directions that have nothing to do with the original question and I'm not sure why.  Muskie Hunter asked if he could use the same pellets he used in his T/C omega in a 50cal sidelock.  Since all Omegas are 50cal, I think it is safe to assume he was asking abut 50cal pellets.  My answer was that he could safely use 2, 50 grn equivalent, 50cal pellets in his sidelock, if it's maximum load rating was 100 grns of Ffg blackpowder, or more.  However, if his sidelock was rated for at least 100 grns of blackpowder, he still would not probably wish to use 2, 50 grn equivalent, 50cal pellets because it would give unreliable ignition.  This is still my answer.

[captchee]

ok lets go one more then as  i cant  help you understand why not any more then i have. I am  trying to explain the different issue as best I can as to why he should not use these in his rifle .


So one last point .
 if  Muskie Hunters weapon has an patent or improved breach . the powder charge will not seat all the way to the base of the  bore IE  bottom of the breech .  unless he  seats the charge so hard as to break up the pellets . doing so will change the size of the  dynamics of the pellet thus possibly change the pressure of the given charge .
However  if they are not crushed in the process of loading, he has  just  created a void or air gap in the  charge column . not only will he have to have a very  hot cap to  ignite the charge  but he will have just , so to speak ,short started his weapon  and created an un safe situation .

 so tell me  please  because i just dont understand how this could be safe in any way .
 i dont see any way to make it safe without changing the properties of the pellets and thus changing  the  so call “usually”  consistent  pressures .
 He states this is an old investment arms ? How old 60”s old , 70’s old ? And could very well have a soft barrel  with a low pressure rating , soft tumbler , soft main spring and shallow threads  to hold the nipple

 to say yes they can be used  in a weapon with out seeing  and inspecting it  first hand  is bad advice

 i know know why spit patch said what he did  LMAO

but he did not ask if I thought it would be a good idea, he just asked if he could do it. I assumed he was aware of the charge rating for both guns. Best Regards Rick

[kjg]

harryho the pellets will not, Repeat will not work in his hawkin rifle because of the patend breach, if he had a t/c fire storm it would work it is designed to be used with pyro pellets, the reason it will not work in a pattened breach is because the breach is concave (meaning the little hole is toward the back, and bighole toward the front I.e chaped charge) if he were to use striaght loose powder it will work just fine I sure hope i stopped this contest.  kjg

[harryo]

harryho the pellets will not, Repeat will not work in his hawkin rifle because of the patend breach,

I believe I said this in my first post.

[captchee]

i sure hope this stps this contest

 ahhhh i guess i must apologize here then .  my intention was not for it to be so and did not realize that’s what it was looking like .
I guess I miss understood  and was only trying to give reasons   as to not give advise that  they could be used .
Sorry about that folks  I didn’t realize that things looked like they were getting out of hand   :oops:

[spitpatch]

Captchee, I agree with all you said......but he did not ask if I thought it would be a good idea, he just asked if he could do it. I assumed he was aware of the charge rating for both guns. Best Regards Rick

This is somewhat ridiculous thinking, isn't it?  I mean, using this logic, someone could ask if they could use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader and you could answer, "yep, sure can.", because they didn't ask if it was a good idea, only if they could do it.  .

Harryo, I don't think my answer was ridiculous at all. He gave all the necessary criteria for the response given. The man owns an in-line so I assumed he wasn't an idiot on BP rifles, and had some reading and reasoning skills. How do you figure he came by the load he uses in it? Had he asked about smokeless in A BP rifle with no more info......more questions would have followed. What I think is ridiculous is the bandying of words and witt in this thread over a simple little question. Have a nice day, Rick