???????????2MSP/Ret

[rifleman61]

hey
ho
wadda'ya'
know
shipmate???
Gotta 45/70 H/R Buffalo,retailored the rear and front sights to the Pedersoli Soule  long range sight set from "BoyzTown"
[Cabela's for ChrtistMass], now get the darn thing to shoot as good as it looks.
Talked to the ranch in Montanna about the "Quigley" and they said smokeless is alright.
I've worked up some loads for it for a test:
1. all brass Winchester
2. powders are IMR 3031 and RE/7
3. primers are CCI Magnum and Winchester large Rifle Magnum
4. cast bullets are 500 grain Postell round noses, #2 alloy chill shocked when cast and lubed in a Lyman 450 lubra/sizer./  All rounds spec. out at a full grain swing +/- .5 grain high or low  
5. no gas checks or wadding, nothing but bare butts, boy that's good!!
6. I understand the principle of artillery; it keeps battles and wars from becoming a "bloody mess" so recoil is no problem it's an "accepted".
7. Using the Lyman manual I developed loads from the Ruger #1/#3 section, "midrange", low starting is 44 and 45 respectively RE/7 and 3031.
My midrange loads are 46.5 for RE/7 and 48.5 for 3031
8. developed five rounds for Winch primers and five rounds for CCIs for each of the two prospective powders for a total of twenty rounds
[four groupings of five each] all Id'eeeed and marked
9. what say you brotherman???, you too "Quick....."?

Anchor's Away/Semper Fi
CPO Bull
6.

[MSP Ret]

, Well buddy it's great to hear from you again and to have you aboard!!! It sounds as if you have all the bases covered. What velocities do you expect tp get from the bare butt bulllets (bbb's!)? I have always been told anything much over 1600 fps and you should have a gc to help prevent leading, The Montanan is the expert on this but I have not seen much posted by him in a while, I wish he would come back. What about it Jon, are you lurking out there somewhere with all this info thats needed?

Quick could also be a wealth of info on this, I am sure he will see this if he has not already...Carry on!!....<><....  :grin:

[quickdtoo]

Well, some people might cringe seeing you start with Ruger load levels, but the pressures they list at <28kcup look good to me as I've shot some much heavier loads in mine so you should do just fine with the R7, and using their jacketed data for the  3031 looks like a good place to start, too. I've been working with H4895 and the 525gr Beartooth Piledriver in my 45-70 and 45-120 BCs to take advantage of the long barrel. I think if you can take the recoil, the rifle will be just fine and should reward you with some great accuracy, specially with the hardware you've added!!! :wink:

As MSP eluded to, using gas checked bullets for the faster loads might be prudent, I've shot some unchecked 500gr MPS loads at around 1700fps and got some nasty leading, have gone to all gas checked and have not regretted it.

Have fun and a full report is mandatory, of course......with pics!!

Thanks,

Tim

[rifleman61]

hey my bothers
I think that on this subject, since this is new territory for me
[I was a competitive shooter for the AllNav.Team, smokeless and M-14s] I had to ask.  My thinking is that if I can keep velocity about 1700fps or less somewhere between1500~1700 I can shoot with minimal leading and not have a  serious talk with "Corporal Punuishment".
[got an old O3A3 two groove Springfield about 20 years ago that I first learned to cast bullets for--a 210 gr. with a GS at about 2000~2100--and I can shoot clover leaves offhand all day long at a 100yards, butt {the "Butt" sisters here Bertha and Big} this is unexplored territory for me.
From studying ballistics tables comparatively from 30/06 and 308 to 45/70 I find something quite interesting.  While the two kids [30/06 and 308] jump out there and wind sprint, wayout there at 600~1000yards that flying boxcar commonly called the 500 gr. Postell bloody well hits like a flying boxcar while the two kids are just about of gas.  The only thing that I can put this down to is the great inertial mass of that 500 gr. Postell.  If this is so, as I suspect, then it is reasonable to infer that its great inertia combined with a proper twist ratio [1:20 for the H/R] will contribute great stability and will negate any adverse windage effects.
So my first "Q" was bluntly put:
"... duh, geee I hope this darn thing don't blow up in my face..."
Thanks for the "honto skinny", Japanese talk for the straight poop.
I got a "range walk" at our rod and gun club this weekend [that's where I take folks around and say things like "... yeah the bullet really comes out of this end...no ya' can't put smokeless powder in yer dang' coffee with sugar..." and I'll try it out along with the fluted Ultra223 aand the 25/06 Christmass Ultra.  Man it's tough work but someone's gotta' do it.

Anchor's Away/Semper Fi
CPO Bull
PS I was at BoyzTown last week [Cabela's] in KC and bought a Lyman 535 gr. Postell for 44.95, man that's a 80.00 mold block at Bob's. I just love that place it's a "blue state nightmare, ain't dis a great country or watttttt?"

[MSP Ret]

Rifleman61, It sounds like you have a lot of good times ahead of you with your H&R 45-70. There is not one guy here that has one that does not enjoy it, some shoot groundhogs with theirs!!! Quick, can you dig up the "Sandy Hook" trials and post a link for Rifleman61? I am sure those old BP trials will really open his eyes and get him chomping at the bit to shoot long distances, and there is some good anecdotal info there about long range penetration also. And perhaps a link to the reported 1 mile shot by Billy Dixon at Adobe Wells?...Thanks....<><....  

Thanks Quick but never mind, I have located those links and they are posted below:

Sandy Hook -- http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/sandyhook.htm

Billy Dixon at Adobe Wells -- http://www.gunblast.com/BillyDixon_Sharps.htm

[rifleman61]

oh baby oh baby
went to the range yesterday and tried out  Mr.45/70
1. I'm on paper finally thanks to Senhor Pedersoli
2. "Corporal Puhishment" and "Major Pain" didn't bother me too much; I tucked'er in nice and tight and gravity did the rest.
3. I shot "keyholes" all. hat's telling me that I'm driving the 500 gr. Postells too hard.  Is that right "Quick"?
4.  Some leading, not too bad.  A couple of quick passes with the rod eliminated about 98% of it.  Is that all right?  I'm in new territory here.
5.  500 grain Postells are actually living evidence that if you put enougn powder breghind a bullet that large even "Boxcars" can fly.
6. Tried out the 25/06 Ultra, Christmass gift 2 me from me.  What a sweetie, nice and smooth.  H/R really engineered that one to perfection.  Initial zero I set at fifty yards with an unknown Simmons scope:
a. 120 gr. BTSP Speers
b. Winch. cases
c. CCI mag primers
d. 51.5 grs.  IMR 4831 powder
Darn thing shoots clover leaves from a rest.  Man ya' gotta'; love it!
Gotta' go back to the range with Mr. 45/70 and see what I can to slow things down.
Any suggestions? Quick, MSP Ret. "Stimply?" et. al.,

Anchor's Away/Semper Fi
CPO Bull

[quickdtoo]

I'm cetainly no cast bullet expert, but sounds like maybe the bullets are sized too small to be pushed that hard, H&R bores can be a bit oversize. I never did much experimenting with unchecked bullets, when I got leaded, I quit using them. What little I did shoot, grouped ok with no keyholes. I would slug your bore and see what the specs are. All the GC cast bullets I've shot were sized .459", FWIW.

Tim

[MSP Ret]

With the limited knowledge I have on the subject I would suspect 2 causes of keyholing, as Quick said, the bullets may be undersized for the bore or they could be pushed to fast. Slug the bore and try slowing them down a bit for a start. With a 500 grain bullet you don't need hypersonic velocity, just put it where it's supposed to hit, even the Postell with a pointed nose carries a lot of energy, especially cast in pure lead and shot slow. For hunting I think a flat point or hollow point might be better but the Postell is supposed to be a good target bullet. I prefer older, heavier and slower bullets, but that could be because I am getting older, heavier and slower myself :-D . The fact that big, heavy, slow bullets group great and really put game down fast is a great bonus for hunters. I'm all for the old tried and true, if it worked 50 or 100 years ago there is no reason for it not to work now. Those simpler days had a lot to offer, I for one don't want to lose the knowledge and abilities we once had as rifleman, I don't feel any gain in velocity with some of the magnums and especially new short magnums will do anything to improve the game taking abilities of hunters if they cannot hit what they are shooting at, and evn more so that precise spot on that animal they are shooting at. No ultra modern caliber will ever make up for poor marksmanship or poor shot placement. Keep at it with that wonderful old caliber and keep us all posted buddy, and remember, have fun!!!....<><.... :grin:

[rifleman61]

HEY
HO
Thank "yawl"
Well it was after church today that I decided to go to the range.
"She who must be obeyed" said: "...that's all right dear..."
Sooooooooo I went downstairs to do some reloads; well long story short I didn't get there.  Time flies when you're havin' fun, even at "the bench".
Did some reloads that are "stepped" down quite significantly.  Went over to the "1873" page in "the Lyman" [I really like their book the best] and took that data.  It is greatly softer than the "Ruger #1/3" page.
1. Took one variable out, primers.  "Bye bye Winch" ;shifted to CCI magnum primers [Used them before when I shot in the Navy]; they're the hottest made [so I've been told] enough about that.
2. Inserted one variable, cases.  Added a half dozen "Starline" cases.  Topper "T" my brother tells me they're pretty good cases so I'll give'em a try.
3. Loaded three Winch. and three Starlines cases with 40 grs. of 3031, starting for that is 38 and top is 42, so I figure 40 is a good halfway point.
4. Loaded three Winch. and three Starlines cases with 37.5 grs. of RX7,
 starting for that is 35 and top is 40, so I figure 37.5 is also a good half way point.
Keep the #2 alloy bullets
a.Will add another 500 gr. bullet offering from Lee.  They make a mold block that is a deadpan copy of the R/N Poastell except it has the pointed  nose of the 535 gr. Postell that Lyman makes.  Their mold blocks are made from aircraft grade aluminum and I used one before in 308/200 gr. and was quite happy with it, cast a very accurate bullet.
b. Will likewise add the 535 gr. Postell offering from Lyman.
I'll pour those up mid-week, weigh and sort
Oh, one variable I did not cover, lube is Lyman Alox, is that all right?
I'm not gonna worry about G/Cs on this; all of the profiles I've looked at don't show that feature, so I figure if I "gentle'em" a little bit that should not become an insurmountable factor. Am I correct in this line of thought?

Anchor's Away/Semper FI
CPO Bull
PS I was out of touch for awhile, had to go "bury" my Dad.  That guy was one "hellofa" [please don't burn me GBO] man.  I'm the oldest of fourteen kids.  He left behind 14 children 31 grandchildren and 41 great children; the man "did right" in this world.

[Ed Hill]

Rifleman61, I have been shooting my buff for two years, but are by no means an expert. ( Jon, chime in anytime!)  I was using 20-1 lead mix for blackpowder, and they really don't like anything over 1200fps in the buff.
I went to the #2 alloy, and they still don't like anything over 1400fps.

A Sharps competitor gave me some 3031 loads at about 1500fps that were extremely accurate in his rifle, and they shot 6" groups in the buff at 100yds. I recently went to Lazer Cast bullets, and shoot them at 1400 to 1500 fps and get good accurcy and no leading.

Make sure the bullets are .459 ( some guns like .460) and if you are going over 1500fps you may need the gas check.



Ed

[rifleman61]

thank "yawl"
I've sched'd up this run of reloads for somehwere between 1100fps/1400fps, so it looks to me as if I'm somewhere on your track maybe about a mile behind ya'.  This whole thing is so new to me.  I've been used, in the past, to shooting smokeless in military and sniper match shooting.  I have to break the mindset of ".308/2900fps" point of aim point of impact.  I'll get there.  What I'm calling #2  is wheel weight that's chill shocked at casting in a bucket of cold water.  I had the wheel weight "scoped out" at the time of purchase by the dealer and it had very much of the same characteristics of #2 as far as the composition of bizmuth and antimony to lead; if anything the lead percentage was a bit lower. I think that also with this loading much of the attendant recoil will also go away.
If I can do this and get a good load then I won't have to "slug" the barrel.
Just came up from the shop I "miked out" a cast bullet and it came at.4515


Anchor's Away/Semper Fi
CPO Bull

[quickdtoo]

Just came up from the shop I "miked out" a cast bullet and it came at.4515

Shootin a .451" bullet in a .458+ bore can't be real pleasing!! :?

[rifleman61]

hey "Quickie"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sixty-one years going on sixty-two years soon;  I learn really quickly.
Sooooooooooo, tell me; I just came up from the shop and "miked out" a random selection of rounds on the bench and they all came in at 459 from the mold block, some maybe a tenth over.
Am I to infer from this, disregard sizing in the lubri-sizer and just "lube" the darn things.  I mean just about everything I touched with the mike came in at 459.  Like I say it's all new to me.

Anchor's Away/Semper Fi
CPO Bull

[quickdtoo]

Sounds good to me, but like I said, I'm not a cast bullet person. What happened to the .4515" bullets, were they sized to that or was that a typo?? I've cast thousands of round balls, and a some bullets, sized and lubed em in a lyman sizer/luber, but it was for muzzle loading not cartridge guns.

You're the same age as my huntin/fishin partner, he'll be 63 next month,  just a few yrs older than me!!! Congrats!!!

Tim

[Ed Hill]

Chief, .451 is a pistol size bullet, are you sure something isn't going on with the lubrasizer?
Try loading some as cast by dip lubing or tumbling in Lee's alox, I think you'll see a lot better accuracy and less leading.
( My father entered the Navy 4 or 5 years before WWII, and came out as a Chief at the end of the conflict. Thanks for your service.)

Ed

[cheatermk3]

If your sizer is producing bullets that are .451 it's not what you wanna use for the 45-70.  Maybe it's for a pistol bullet?

I'd be using them as-dropped and pan-lube them.

PS--
The lazer-cast bullets are good to at least 1700fps; dunno if they make a 500-grain?

[rifleman61]

Hey "Quickie"
Ya' knows shipmate I learns really fast.  There's an old Navy saying it goes: "...when in doubt go and read the bloodie@#$%^&***** tech manual..."
Soooooooooooo, I went to the "SPG Lubricants BP Cartridge Book"
{Venturino and Garbe} and turned to the page bercause somewheres in my fogged memory I remember reading something about unsized" bullets.
Topper "T" lent it to me.  Well now!!!
Page 16 "Bullet Sizing" says and I quote, "...if the as cast diameter of .45 bullets are .458 or even .459 inch, no harm is done to them in passing through a .459 sizing die."
Back up the page it says:
"Sizing bullets more than.001 inch actually deforms an otherwise perfect projectile..."
Ya' knows I gots ta' hang around on the street corner witch use" guys some more;  it's positively amazin' what I'm learnin' !

Later guy
Anchor's Away/Semper FI
CPO Bull

[cheatermk3]

I just went and looked, they do make 500 gn as well as 405, 350, and 300 grainers.

www.laser-cast.com

[MSP Ret]

Chief, try them unsized and lubed and report back, I'll bet you are pleasently surprised!!!....<><.... :grin: