Author Topic: Need some advise on choosing between a few calibers. (Read 5480 times)

nomosendero · « **Reply #30 on:** August 10, 2007, 03:09:27 AM »

Quote from: SuperstitionCoues on August 05, 2007, 11:23:10 AM

I would say that the .17 falls into your category of oddball or wildcats, IMHO.

If you want something common, go for a .223 or a .243. A .223 is not overbore for what you are after. Consider it a .22LR on steroids.

Ah, yea. Oddball it is. Nothing wrong with the 17, but it misses the mark for the requirements of the first post, unless the original poster was not serious about his own requirements. Quote: "something common is what I'm looking for"

Yes, we get it.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #31 on:** August 10, 2007, 06:39:40 AM »

For fur bearing critters such as fox, the .223 is going to be too much of a gun. It's going to do too much fur damage on that small animal. I hunt fox and I use a 22 magnum with 40 grain hollow points and generally my shots max out at 100 yards. Usually they are 40 to 60 yards.

For an excellent discussion of fur bearing hunting and calibers check out http://www.huntingpa.com/ and go to the "message boards". Under there check out the "predator" forum. Those guys eat, breath and sleep fox, coyote and bobcat hunting in Pa. They know their stuff.

Dave

JimG · « **Reply #32 on:** August 10, 2007, 07:09:01 AM »

Davemuzz- thanks for the link.

Come on guys lets play nice! I didn't post this to create a small bore war! The fact is when you break it down all the above calibers have good and bad points. Still ain't made a decision, will post what I buy soon though!

nomosendero · « **Reply #33 on:** August 10, 2007, 12:33:55 PM »

Good luck Jim. As you said, there are alot of good choices out there, not just in cartridges, but in guns too.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #34 on:** August 10, 2007, 02:11:40 PM »

I don't think of it as a war. Just guys comparing notes.
Back when I was shooting animals for their fur, the .17's weren't heard of and the hornets and such were just about obsolete. The folks that still used them poached deer at night, lived way back in the woods and talked to themselves.

You pretty much had a choice of .222, 223, 22-250 and the Swift. Nor did we have the choice of bullets you have now. I tried several things. Some worked some of the time but not all the time. I screwed around with a coyote one time for over an hour --I had a 22-250-- thinking if I could get him turned just right, I could shoot him longwise and the bullet might stay in him. I got my shot and the bullet hit the scapula (shoulder blade) and made a right handed turn and blew a hole in the cape you could drop a soft ball thru.
Once hides got down to where they were hardly worth skinning, you could hardly make a bad shot.

Prebanpaul · « **Reply #35 on:** August 13, 2007, 11:07:19 AM »

TROTTERLG

I belive you stated that "..223's are only good if you are either really cheap or poor. Larry " . How is that savage again. I believe that they are very cheap. But good shooters and reliable. That is exactly what I think about my .223. I did have one bounce off a yote the other day though. I wouldnt want you to cheapin your savage so dont go out and buy one ok.

~Ace~ · « **Reply #36 on:** August 13, 2007, 11:14:15 AM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on August 10, 2007, 02:11:40 PM

The folks that still used them poached deer at night, lived way back in the woods and talked to themselves.

?? You say that like it's a Bad thing

Davemuzz · « **Reply #37 on:** August 13, 2007, 11:37:48 AM »

Quote from: trotterlg on August 09, 2007, 06:34:08 PM

.223's are used the most because there are more of them, there are more of them because they are functional and cheap to shoot. Just because there is more of something does not mean it is the best. Goes back to the tool thing, you will use the tools you have, not because they are the best for the job but because you can put your hands on them. To properly kill a Coyote you need a round which is neither over kill or under kill, the .223 is over kill, a 22 Mag is under kill, the 17 CF's work out just right, there may be something better, I just haven't seen it yet, but I may tomorrow. Some people get it and some people don't, I get it, you don't, nothing wrong with that, there will always be people who get it and people who don't, I'm happy and you seem happy. Good luck with the Doggies. Larry

I just don't know how I even got this far in life without advice like this. I'll bet everything I've shot with my .223 and 22 mag wasn't really dead. They probably were just playin possum. How did I know? Oh the shame....the shame!!!!

Dave

jasonprox700 · « **Reply #38 on:** August 13, 2007, 01:54:02 PM »

Quote from: JimG on August 09, 2007, 01:27:54 AM

I've made a decision and that is I need two distinctly different rifles. One for walking and one for distance if you get my drift. The bull barreled Howa would frankly stink for walking the edges of fields and woods and creek banks. However a shorter, sporter contoured barreled, light weight, lower velocity/energy rifle would not be as effective as a heavy rifle chambered in a fast higher energy cartridge for precision shots at distance. Everyone knows that including me, I was just hoping to combine the two into one. Ain't gonna happen. Sooooooo......I'll just get one now and the other later. Right now I have a need for a longer distance rifle.

I actually had the same train of thought when I first got into the small centerfires. At first, I was interested in the .220 Swift. But I got such a deal on my .22-250 that I couldn't go wrong. Now I'm glad for that purchase, because the 250 isn't quite the barrel burner, and it is still extremely fast and will reach out. But I wanted a heavy barreled gun for distance shooting, so that's why I have the .22-250 in the Rem 700 VLS. But I wanted a lighter one for walking. So I decided on a .223 in a AR-15. It is easy to carry and shoots extremely accurate. You can load it down or up, what ever your mood. Take your time and decide what your needs and wants are. I did, couldn't be happier.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #39 on:** August 13, 2007, 03:25:03 PM »

Quote from: trotterlg on August 09, 2007, 06:34:08 PM

To properly kill a Coyote you need a round which is neither over kill or under kill, the .223 is over kill, a 22 Mag is under kill, the 17 CF's work out just right,

Then this just occured to me.....I always thought dead was dead. I didn't know you could "overkill" or "underkill" anything. I've never been hunting...."Hey Bob....better shoot it again...it's dead...but I think it's an underkill. Another shot wouldn't hurt".

Dave

beemanbeme · « **Reply #40 on:** August 14, 2007, 02:45:53 AM »

Overkill is when you use one of those boutique bullets that cost about $2.00 each on a 100# whitetail deer.

Underkill is when you make a "PERFECT HEART" shot on the same 100# deer and he runs away never to be found. No, maybe that's a bullet failure.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #41 on:** August 14, 2007, 03:38:45 AM »

both guys i know that own 22 hornets say they use them to poach deer , if that is true then a song dog should be no problem !
i have a .223 and can load it to do alot of things like go from hornet to almost 22-250 speed , no not match but get close enough for shots out to 300 yards !

Davemuzz · « **Reply #42 on:** August 14, 2007, 07:33:00 AM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on August 14, 2007, 02:45:53 AM

No, maybe that's a bullet failure.

Ha,ha,ha,ha....ROFLMAO

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #43 on:** August 14, 2007, 08:54:55 AM »

under kill , how about a bad shot ? or poor tracking ! ( if it ran off then how do ya know it was perfect ? ) ( it might be shooter error )
over kill ? dead is dead , so over kill must be when the meat is passed being usable !
oh yea , bullet failure is that like poor bullet selection ?
boutique bullets ? you getting those at Victories secret or something ?

beemanbeme · « **Reply #44 on:** August 14, 2007, 12:25:15 PM »

Oh yeah!! The latest on the boutique bullet scene is they are gonna come out in colours! Isn't that an absolute rage! They will come in a box of 25 individually wrapped bullets somewhat like a box of candy or you can get a sampler box of 10 showing one each of the distinctive colours. Be the first on your block or in your gun club to show just how far idle indebtedness can be taken.

JimG · « **Reply #45 on:** August 14, 2007, 12:40:43 PM »

Done deal. Bought a Howa chambered in .204 Ruger. Has a 24" bull barrel and has the typical piller bedded Hogue overmolded stock most Howa's have these days.

Here's why- The .223 runs out of steam to fast for the prairies where I live/hunt. I'm sure it's a fine caliber but it's not what I need. The .22-250's range is wonderfull, just too much wallop for a non reloader. I'm trying to save pelts and I just felt that the .22-250 would damage more than I'd save. The .22 Hornet is just not enough in both velocity or energy for my needs. The .204 has the range and wind beating ability of the .22-250 (with light bullets in the .22-250) yet should be easier on the pelts. All of the cartridges are great and it was a difficult decision.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #46 on:** August 14, 2007, 12:58:34 PM »

good luck , sounds like a nice set up let us know !

nomosendero · « **Reply #47 on:** August 14, 2007, 02:46:13 PM »

Jim, that should be a nice, fun rifle. I hope it is a shooter.

jwv · « **Reply #48 on:** August 14, 2007, 05:01:25 PM »

Jim, The choice you made is a good one. I think you will like the 204, I have the handi in the 22" HB and it has been a very accurate rifle straight out of the box.From what I have read the Howas are usually a pretty good shooter , hope it works out for you. I have been reloading for mine the last few weeks and I have found it to be a little hard to get the better accuracy then I got with the factory 32 grain Hornadys I have been using Reloader 10x and sierra blks. in 32 grain and 39 grain. and cci br-4 primers. Will be trying h-322 and IMR 4198 to see if I can get the groups a little tighter.

Just getting back into reloading and am having to learn it all again. that's the fun of it

Good luck with your choice and let us all know how it shoots. Jack

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #49 on:** August 15, 2007, 02:22:06 AM »

I reread your original post. I can see that you were leaning to the 204 all along. You pretty much ruled out the 223 and 22-250 and that only left the 204, 22 hornet, and 17 HMR with a glimmer of hope for a 17 center fire. Any shooting over 200 yards would only leave you the 204, maybe the 17 Rem. Good choice, as any of them would have been. Now you need that shorter range gun

I think the 204 would work for that too, but it is definitely more fun to have more than one to choose from. I tried to convince you that a 223 is the way to go, but it really is the way to go for me, not you. I do not save hides, so I do not worry about that ( I could down load a 223 for that purpose). I hand load and can make loads for longer range stuff out to 600 yards (better have a good range finder for that) or down load to 22 Hornet velocities. It is a very versatile round that can cover a wide verity of bullet weights and types. I do a lot of shooting so cost is a factor too, at least for me it is. Like I said the 223 is best for me, not you. You are the only one that really knows what you need. I also wanted to thank you for the entertainment. I read these posts daily, looking at what the other folks are thinking and saying. They are a bunch of good guys, and they are passionate about their choices. To me, that is what makes GBO great. I really enjoy the diversity and the exchange of ideas with out too much mud slinging.

I am looking forward to your next choice, please share with us before you purchase.

usbone1 · « **Reply #50 on:** October 16, 2007, 03:09:56 AM »

Looks like I am, once again, too late to influence the purchase. However--there's always a 'however' eh?--I would have strongly encouraged a consideration for a Remington 6mm option. I admit I purchased mine (Remington 700BDL) way back in 1976 with what is now called a bull barrel and it does a wonderful job on ground hogs with 55-70 grain rounds and deer with 100 grain rounds. It shoots better than I can aim.

I recognize the universal attraction for a .223 but am prejudiced against the round, and M-16. I'll be getting my son a Rock River AR in .308, thank you very much. I personally possess my M-14, yeah, I'm older.

Look long, think about it, and shoot safe.

NoBull60 · « **Reply #51 on:** February 11, 2008, 05:00:10 PM »

Quote from: JimG on August 14, 2007, 12:40:43 PM

Done deal. Bought a Howa chambered in .204 Ruger. Has a 24" bull barrel and has the typical piller bedded Hogue overmolded stock most Howa's have these days.

Here's why- The .223 runs out of steam to fast for the prairies where I live/hunt. I'm sure it's a fine caliber but it's not what I need. The .22-250's range is wonderfull, just too much wallop for a non reloader. I'm trying to save pelts and I just felt that the .22-250 would damage more than I'd save. The .22 Hornet is just not enough in both velocity or energy for my needs. The .204 has the range and wind beating ability of the .22-250 (with light bullets in the .22-250) yet should be easier on the pelts. All of the cartridges are great and it was a difficult decision.

Don't be fooled, the 204 can still blow holes and even splash if shot placement isn't good.

NoBull60

Old English · « **Reply #52 on:** February 11, 2008, 05:46:47 PM »

I was bored and read every post in the thread. Pretty bitchy for a bunch of guys who all claim to love the same sport. 204 is a good choice, all the other options offered up would have been good too. Have fun original poster, you'll be happy until you feel the need for the 223, 22-250, 243. We are spoiled for choice and long may that continue!

Davemuzz · « **Reply #53 on:** February 12, 2008, 05:37:59 AM »

Quote from: Old English on February 11, 2008, 05:46:47 PM

Pretty bitchy for a bunch of guys who all claim to love the same sport.

Interesting statement. Did you spend most of you life in meetings with women? (Excuse me....pardon me, but....oh, why yes I understand your point, however...all I was attempting to say was) Yeah....git 'er done!!!

Dave

flyboy · « **Reply #54 on:** February 12, 2008, 05:42:08 AM »

Quote from: lucky guy on August 09, 2007, 08:07:10 PM

You can load the 223 down to hornet levels (or 22 mag) or go up to the more common 223 loads. That's a pretty nice option if you reload. /quote]
.........................
The same can be said of the 22-250 or .243. .17s and .20s are marvelous, no doubt, and who is to say whetere a fellow's choice isn't the best one for him, but there are LOTS of options, which is why this sort of discussion is fun.

Myself, I prefer the Klein Loudenboomer .19, or the Spitzensparken Howler in .22 MAG.

Well said, Old English!

tuck2 · « **Reply #55 on:** February 13, 2008, 02:20:00 AM »

I m 72 years old and since I was given a 22 when I was 13 and have spent a life time looked for the perfect varmint rifle. I m still looking . Learn how to reload and try different brands of bullets and velocities to match the varmint size and average distances you will be shooting then at. At close in shots the bullet my blow up on entry while at long range the bullet may pass in and out of the varmint with little damage. Over the years I have ben luckey and have used a 17 HM2, 17 HMR, 17 Fireball, 17 Rem, 204 Ruger, 22 LR, 22 WMR, 22 Hornet, 221 Fireball, 222 Rem, 223 Rem, 22-250 Rem, 220 Swift, 243 Win and have also used my deer-elk rifles a few time on varmints. Each round has its bullet weight, design, and velocity limits. If I were to go fox hunting and the expected shots would be within 300 yards with little wind the 17 or 221 Fireball would be in the pickup. But for some one new to the game start out with a 223 Rem and learn how to reload ammo. Get a good quilty rifle and scope so that you can get 1/2-3/4 inch groups at 100 yards. Have fun.

Mike Pearson · « **Reply #56 on:** February 26, 2008, 06:34:29 PM »

Quote from: JimG on August 06, 2007, 01:42:30 AM

A Hornet is really only a 100-150 yard cartridge?! I would of thought it would be more of a 200 yarder or maybe longer. As for the rifles themselves I'm looking at Howa's in .204/.223/.22-50 and CZ's in .22 Hornet and .204. I have not seen many .17HMR chambered rifles in gun shops lately as they are very popular around here. I've had a few CZ rimfires in the past and still have one and they all have been good to great (have not shot my 452 American as of yet) and my .308 Howa so far has been excellent. They have a bull barreled .204 Howa in a Houge stock at the shop that has gotten my attention but I'm just not sure of the .204 round. Just some more of my thoughts on this subject.

On coyotes, 150 yards would be a good max. range for the Hornet (with a good load and placement). Sure it can be good for 20 yards but for CONSISTENT success, the targets should be smaller ('chucks, prairie dogs, crow, etc.).
The .223 would be the best PRACTICAL choice due to the low cost of ammo. It'll do the job well on coyotes to a full 300 yards. Some can and do take coyotes even further but when you take trajectory and wind-drift into consideration, 300 yards is a good max. range for this cartridge on coyotes.
The .204 cost more to shoot but is a true 400 yard cartridge (even on coyotes) on a 300 yard cartridge case. It also can be very good on pelts.
The .17 Remington is a full 300 yard coyote cartridge and is the second best factory cartridge for pelts when everything is considered. I'd say that the .17 Fireball would be a tad more gentle on pelts but the ammo is substantially more expensive. It is about a 200 yard cartridge (perhaps a bit more with really well placed shots). Best thing to do if you're interested in keeping the pelts and your shots ARE 200 and under yards is get the .17 Remington and load DOWN to .17 Fireball velocities. Have your cake and eat it too!--Mike

torpedoman · « **Reply #57 on:** April 01, 2008, 04:36:03 PM »

i have a 22 good for coyotes for 75-100 yds 17hmr good out to 150- 175 22 mag about the same as 17hmr but more knock down 223, 25-06, 22-250 generally if you can get a shot you can kill them but they are not fur friendly presently considering a 204

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #58 on:** April 02, 2008, 03:46:07 AM »

Quote from: trotterlg on August 07, 2007, 01:39:18 PM

If you think you can limit the fur damage with a 22-250 by choosing a proper bullet then I will call BS, it just doesn't work that way, go shoot some Coyotes and then come back and tell us that.

Horsepuckey. I’ve got 76 coyotes to my credit, most with a .22-250 but some with a .22LR, .257Roberts, 7mm Rem Mag, and .375 Win. That’s not a lot but it has given me an opportunity to see first hand what various bullets will do.

By far the least pelt damage was done by the .22LR. Unfortunately it was also unreliable when it came to dropping the coyotes and I quit using it.

The second least pelt damage was done by the .22-250 and 55g FMJs – a small hole in and a small hole out. They put the coyotes down but death was sometimes slow in coming. Since I don’t save the hides I quit using them as well.

The third least pelt damage, with a sample of one, was done by the 7mm Rem Mag and a 160g Barnes XLC that failed to expand. I never did find either the entrance or exit holes but the coyote dropped like a stone.

By contrast I have seen a lot of hide damage done by V-Max and Ballistic Tips, much more so than the 52g Match HP bullets I use a lot. Perhaps the worst of the bunch was 40g V-Max and Ballistic Tip bullets. Sometimes they would make a small entrance hole with no exit, but other times I have seen a softball-sized exit.

Quote

A nice little hornet will do well for you, but the 17 CF's are the proper Coyote round. The .204 is just a wantabe round, not up to the 22-250 and not as classy as the 17 Rem. .223's are only good if you are either really cheap or poor. Larry

More horsepuckey. There is a reason the .223 is as popular as it is for coyotes – it works very well. I’ll take a .223 over anything in a .17 every day of the week.

thesteeleboy · « **Reply #59 on:** April 10, 2008, 05:25:01 PM »

Trust me on this one, If you plan to skin or sell these coyotes the 204 is the winner hands down. The reason being is out past 150 yds. the 17 rimfires tend to loose too much oomph. The 222 - 223 and up blow too big of holes in the dogs and I hate to half to sew fur. The 17 centerfire is a great coyote gun but probably better suited for hand loaders. The 204 is deadly out about as far as you can kill one and the little Hornady bullets don't come out leaving a big hole to sew. It is also popular enough to purchase on allmost any sporting goods shelf. If you hit a coyote in the boiler room it kills them quick.