Author Topic: question on seating depth on my 30-30 handi (Read 663 times)

hunterwinco · « **on:** March 17, 2006, 03:42:23 PM »

I was at the store the other day and they had 1/2 box of Hornady 150g spire points for $6.00, so I bought them to try in my 3030 handi. This may be a silly question...but. I loaded up a dummy to check for length. When I crimp in the cannelure on the bullet and load it into my rifle, it will not eject because it is crammed up into the rifling. My question is: can I sink that bullet another 1/16 of an inch or so and then just crimp with my factory crimp die, will this cause any problems? I am assuming it won't? --thanks

mitchell · « **Reply #1 on:** March 17, 2006, 04:07:24 PM »

just sink the bullet as far as you need and don't crimp.

trotterlg · « **Reply #2 on:** March 17, 2006, 06:45:55 PM »

Seat it to what works, the factory crimp will make a nice cannular in any bullet except the solids. Larry

9x19 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 17, 2006, 07:31:11 PM »

In a single shot, you really shouldn't need much crimp.

The biggest reason for crimping is to prevent bullet jump/set-back under recoil in multi-cartridge guns.

mitchell · « **Reply #4 on:** March 18, 2006, 03:20:25 AM »

Quote from: 9x19

In a single shot, you really shouldn't need much crimp.

The biggest reason for crimping is to prevent bullet jump/set-back under recoil in multi-cartridge guns.

+1 loose the crimp

Mac11700 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 18, 2006, 03:53:06 AM »

In a 30-30 Handi..crimping really isn't needed..now if you where loading the appropriate bullet to be used in a tube magazine or even in a bolt gun..it would be a good thing..but usually not in a single shot rifle in that cartridge..

Mac

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #6 on:** March 21, 2006, 01:29:25 PM »

Crimping is also supposed to increase accuracy a bit because pressures build up more evenly before the bullet beaks loose from the case. More evenly being from shot to shot.

-WH-

ScatterGunner · « **Reply #7 on:** March 21, 2006, 01:54:44 PM »

seat the bullet out to where it just engages the rifling, and don't crimp the case if you're using the round in your handi. if you are using th erounds in other guns, like tube feeders, crimp away!

crimping the bullet just messes up the neck tension on the bullet unless they are done perfectly. the neck bulges out, your description kind of suggests that, and can stick in the chamber.

call me crazy, but you can also leave the bullet somewhat loose and have it extend out quite far and let the rifling push it back into the case neck when you load the round into the chamber!! (geez, that's an old bench rest technique from the mid '80's. just make it doesn't fall back into the case !!!!)

sg

9x19 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 22, 2006, 09:24:49 AM »

Winter hawk,

That's putting an awful lot of faith in the ability of the reloader to pull the handle consistently enough from round to round that the crimp is also consistent.

I think its better to rely on the neck tension created by the expander button... and if the expander is too large to get sufficient tension, it can easily be reduced in diameter or replaced.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** March 22, 2006, 10:53:21 AM »

Even with my limited reloading experience, crimping appears to have merit and has work well for me. I've read numerous reports of how it can make the difference in accuracy.

Here's a report on accuracy and crimping, the data is hard to read due to copying and pasteing, but the text is plain to see.....

Quote

THE EFFECTS OF CRIMPING ON ACCURACY AND VELOCITY

I have read a number of articles discussing the advantages and disadvantages of crimping the bullet in the case. In fact, there is a very good article in the February issue of Petersens RIFLE SHOOTER magazine, by Mr. Wayne van Zwoll discussing this very subject.

He did not go as far as doing any shooting tests. And as I have a number of factory crimp dies from LEE who have always implied that crimped ammo would out shoot the non-crimped variety I thought of doing a test of my own.

The test would involve three different rifles, in three different calibers.

RIFLES:

1. 223 REMINGTON: REMINGTON 40X, LEUPOLD 6.5-20X IN JEWEL LIVE CENTER RINGS ON KELBLY BASES.

243 WINCHESTER: REMINGTON 700 PSS, LEUPOLD 6.5-20X IN LEUPOLD MOUNTS.
308 WINCHESTER: SAKO TRG-21, BAUSCH & LOMB ELITE 4000 6-24 IN SAKO MOUNTS.
LOADS USED:

223 REMINGTON: 26-H4895, NOSLER 55 BALLISTIC TIP, FEDERAL 205M IN WINCHESTER CASES
243 WINCHESTER: 46.5 H414, BERGER 71 HPBT, FEDERAL 210M IN WINCHESTER CASES
308 WINCHESTER: 42.2 VVN 140, SIERRA 168 MK, FEDERAL 210M IN RWS CASES.
All cases were match prepped and sorted to within 0.5 of a grain, all bullets were molly coated.

I loaded 50 identical rounds for each rifle, 25 of which were crimped and 25 were left without crimps. I tried to put a reasonably heavy crimp on, although none of the bullets had a crimp groove. I fired all of the them as 5 shot groups, over an OEHLER Model 43 PBL.

223 REMINGTON

UNCRIMPED

1
2
3
4
5
AVERAGE

0.523
0.596
0.719
0.723
0.528
0.618

CRIMPED

1
2
3
4
5
AVERAGE

0.458
0.508
0.671
0.371
0.471
0.496

VELOCITY

UNCRIMPED
HIGH
LOW
AVERAGE
ES
SD

3198
3159
3178
39
14

CRIMPED
HIGH
LOW
AVERAGE
ES
SD

3198
3154
3176
44
14

243 WIN

UNCRIMPED

1
2
3
4
5
AVERAGE

0.878
1.310
0.641
1.541
0.982
1.070

CRIMPED

1
2
3
4
5
AVERAGE

0.545
0.488
1.401
1.391
1.092
0.983

VELOCITY

UNCRIMPED
HIGH
LOW
AVERAGE
ES
SD

3353
3307
3332
45
20

CRIMPED
HIGH
LOW
AVERAGE
ES
SD

3327
3293
3312
33
13

308 WIN

UNCRIMPED

1
2
3
4
5
AVERAGE

0.259
0.267
0.664
0.355
0.339
0.377

CRIMPED

1
2
3
4
5
AVERAGE

0.448
0.209
0.375
0.572
0.264
0.374

VELOCITY

UNCRIMPED
HIGH
LOW
AVERAGE
ES
SD

2489
2453
2470
36
14

CRIMPED
HIGH
LOW
AVERAGE
ES
SD

2509
2474
2490
35
12

Well, when I went into this project, I must admit that I was a bit skeptical about finding any improvements. Now if we look at the groups, we find that the crimped ammo shot approximately 10% better. Also, the standard deviation seems to be lower with the crimped ammo. I think this needs looking into further.

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 22, 2006, 03:46:21 PM »

The numbers don't seem to be significantly different--the biggest difference was in the SD for the 243 and a 20 VS a 13 ain't that big a difference- the ES of 45 VS 33 for the same load is also, IMHO, insignificant.

The difference in the avg. group sizes tells the same tale--not enough difference to worry about.

That the crimped loads shot slightly better groups may well have more to do with the fact that they were shot in magazine rifles (Wayne doesn't say whether he fed them from the magazine, or individually).

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** March 22, 2006, 03:54:38 PM »

10% works for me, I'll take an easy improvement like that in a heart beat since it costs nothing!!!

Tim

ScatterGunner · « **Reply #12 on:** March 22, 2006, 04:19:29 PM »

i'd have to think about this too.

assuming the bullets were seated equally, erratic bullet jump caused by no crimps could cause grouping problems.

in my experience, having the bullet just engaging the rifling with no crimps results in the smallest groups for given loads, conditions, etc.. but i have been proven wrong many times!

with no crimp, the bullets will begin to move based on pressure curves, neck tension, and thickness where a crimp, when properly done, seems to make neck tension and thickness a less significant factor in group size.

oh well, more food for thought. i just bought one of those 7.62 x 39mm handi's for a summer project. i missed out on this winters' bird hunts being on the road (in the air actually) and trying to figure out how to make this extraordinarily lousy cartridge shoot straight might be fun.

sg

Mac11700 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 22, 2006, 06:44:50 PM »

The main difference he's achieved is consistant bullet pull..Benchrest shooters have been doing this for many years with nothing more than having bushing dies to control bullet pull..the collet die replicates this somewhat by applying consistant pressure completely around the outside squeezing it down over a wider section..instead of inside by sizing the case neck with the appropriate sized bushing to achive the desired bullet pull..the biggest difference is you can't be as precise with the collet die as you can with a bushing..withthe collet die your changing the case neck dimensions in relation to the throat.. the case dimensions remain constant with the bushing die..The main problem is..trying to use a taper crimp die to try to achieve this..it doesn't work near as well..and can easily distort the bullet surface..the factory crimp die..nor the bushing dies will do this...

The nice thing I've found with the Lee factory crimp die..it's a whole lot cheaper than buying bushing dies..I use one for all my 45-70 loading on nickle cases..haven't buggerd a case since using it either..I haven't found a need to use any heavy crimp with all the rest of my Handi's..but I'm not loading most of them up to the max with real slow powders either..not in the bottle necks anyways..just in the 45-70..

Mac

405 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 24, 2006, 04:54:52 AM »

I ran into the same thing with HDY 130 Spires in my NEF .30-30. The ogive of the Hornady bullets is more abrupt than Speer, Sierra, etc., and it is a straight .308 diameter for more of it's length and then sharply tapers to the point.

What I ended up doing is making a dummy load and just seated the bullet a little at a time until there were no chambering/ejection problems, then back off the load a couple of grains and worked my way back up. Turns out I could still use the T/C max IMR book loads even with the shorter COAL with no pressure signs.

405