.450 Black Powder Express

[Balltip]

Gentlemen!
I am new to this site, and I do hope that I can bring some knowledge along with my questions. Am currently a student at the swede gunsmith scool.
Now: I have stumbled across a Husqvarna model 300 sbs sidelock double 12ga with a extra set of barrels chambered for the .450 Black Powder Express (wich is the dad to the .450 nitro express, if I am not wrong). The barrels have express rifling (deep wide rifling) and the barrels have been regulated for a paper patched lead bullet weighing 365grs. Now I am looking for anybody who might have any load data at all using this case but with modern jackeded bullets (speer or hornady) weighing 350 to 400 grs and modern smokeless powders. I am quite aware that the barrels will wear faster using modern components but this is not the question at hand. Anybody out there have any suggestions or knowledge about the specific cartridge? I want to at least duplicate the performance of the .45-70 but with heavier bullets. Main use will be for hunting moose and boar in wooded areas, so I do not need a lazer beam.
Thanks.

[John Traveler]

Hi, Balltip!

Welcome to the board!

As for your inquiery for smokeless loads to fire in your double rifle barrels, try looking through back issues of the Gun Digest, in the late 1980's or early 1990's.  There were at least a couple articles on loading for large caliber express double rifles.  I guess the biggest problem you will have is finding a load that will shoot to the same point of aim.  Next to that will be finding standard jacketed bullets that will fit your groove diameter.

The author's name was Taylor, or Jobson, or something like that.  He got into cartridge case sources, conversions, and powder/bullet combos.

Where is the Swede gunsmithing school?

Best of luck!

[Balltip]

Thank you for the tip! And thank you for welcoming me here!
I will start harassing whatever friends I might have, to get to look in their old copies of Gun Digest.

Smith scool is situated in a small town named Gyttorp, about 150 clicks west of Stockholm. Head master is master engraver Stanley Stoltz.

Regulating that rifle will not be a big problem since we do that during the course (learn how to, I mean) as a lot of us is building double barreled sbs rifles chambered for the 8x57jrs (one guy choosed the .444 marlin for his project) on Merkel model 8´s in 20ga.


Per

[John Traveler]

Hi again, Balltip!

As soon as I get home, I will look up the reloading article and scan it for you.

Say!  Do you have any connections for exporting Swedish Remington Rolling Block rifles?  I've looked ALL OVER for one, in ANY condition!  The Swedish-made rolling block rifles show the finest workmanship of any I've seen.  My friends say thiat I have a fetish for the RRB.

I assume that you will be using Norma powder and components?  Or do you have access to American-made powders and bullets too?

I have some friends who do frequent travel to Kongsberg, Norway.  Maybe we can set up a barter and trade system!

John

[Balltip]

What make of RBR would you like most? Husqvarna or Carl Gustaf? There should not be such a huge problem helping you find one in good to mint condition chambered for the 8x58RD round. Including the bayonet it will propably cost you $200-250. Good 12,7x44R rifles are harder to get. Exporting it to Norway ain´t a huge problem either, I think I might be able to arrange that later on (when I get my equvivalent to an FFL).

If you are interrested, I´ll do a little checking for you.

Two of the fellas on the course are working on converting RBR´s. New barrels chambered for the 7x57R and the .45-70 respectively. And that is not such a bad idea, considering. Actions are fairly cheap, yet strong. Triggers can be altered to become quite smooth and not too heavy.
One of these guys are a true rolling block nutcase. In fact he loves all old actions ("stuck in a swamp of nostalgia" as he says).

Regarding componets there is Norma and With powders easily available. Us powders are harder to get due to pricing and importation fees. Bullets I use are Norma, Nosler and Sierra (Norma uses the 168 Sierra HPBT with moly for their "diamond line" loads in .30 cal, and I can get those bullets far cheaper than if I buy ordinary Siera bullets. Use them for range work with good results).

Per.

[Double D]

There are a couple of different cartridges that could be indentified as the .450 BP Express in different case lenghts.  First how do you know that is what your bbls are?  Are the bbls marked?.

If the bbl is a double are both chambers the same.  Have you made a chamber cast and taken measurements.

Next about the best reference you can come up with is Cartridges of the World.  This book is printed by the same people who print Gun digest. With the measurements from your chamber cast you can use their reference charts to figure out what you really have

RCBS and Redding will make you custom dies to fit your gun.  But they will also very much over charge you.   Got www.ch4d.com for reasonable price well made dies.

[Balltip]

Hi there. Thanks for the imput!
The barrels are chambered for the .450 BPE 3½" straight wall case (11,4x83R). The gun came with a couple of dozens of cases, and I have indeed cast the chambers to make shure, using cerrosafe.
I have a phone no to a fella in Stockholm, Sweden that have a die he might part with. I have also been in touch with Dave Davison at about the possibility buying tools from him. The pricing was reasonable, $138 + $25 for shiping.

You mentioned the book Cartridges of the world. Big, blue book, right?
Got it at smith school.

Per.

[Double D]

Big Blue book sounds like Ken Howells book, nope Frank Barnes book is Cartridges of the World.  It's a Gun digest book.  Check with www.amazon.com


Tere is a specialty board for doubles. http://www.gunshop.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi.  These guys might be able to helpp you out.

[KING]

Balltip....the .450 Nitro express (3 1/4) started out as a black powder round.  My book also shows a .450/400 BPE (black powder express)(2 3/8 inch),if this is what you were looking for I hope it helps ya a little...stay safe...king

[KING]

:-D you probably could gt away with using .45-120 dies also.  king

[Oregon Bill]

Balltip: Find a copy of the July 2000 issue of Rifle Magazine. Ross Seyfried had an article on loading this cartreidge with both smokeless and black. It prompted me to have a Ruger No. 1 Tropical in .458 reamed to .450 3 1/4. Because of the short barrel, I couldn't get much more than 1500 out of it with black powder and cast bullets in the 450-500 grain range. Nor was the fast twist particularly suited to black powder and cast. With smokeless and jacketed, I achieved .458 ballistics at .45-70 pressures. I could have loaded a lot hotter in the very strong No. 1, but frankly, the recoil started getting stiffer than I cared to deal with on a purely recreational basis.