Author Topic: What is "Traditional"?  (Read 838 times)

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Offline Swamp Yankee

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What is "Traditional"?
« on: February 09, 2006, 01:21:44 PM »
I was at a black powder shoot this fall and was hanging out with the guys from that club when I made the mistake of saying I liked to shoot "Traditional" Wow........did I get my ba!!s busted "You call that traditional? with that plastic tackle box [thats what I used for a range box] and wearing sneekers, and look you have a ball cap on, 'Thats not traditional!' I really had no answer for that and I had hoped that it would just blow over...........but no........I heard about it for the rest of the day. Keep in mind these guys are the type of guys that wear dead animals on their heads and wear buckskins and mocacins. At the end of the day the guys told me I was a good sport about it............I held up two first place trophys and asked them how many they got..........no responce....
And now the rest of the story: I got a wooden box with a hinged cover and made some dividers and a drop in tray and got rid of the tackle box and will bring my possibles bag next time even though it doesen't hold that much and this time I will keep my mouth shut, but some how I get the feeling that they won't forget me.
live and learn, I figured you guys might get a laugh out of this....Jim
ps. just for the record, I don't own any inlines.........

Offline horseman308

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What is "Traditional"?
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2006, 01:54:56 PM »
I appreciate that story. I can definitely understand wanting to reexperience the old way of doing things, right down to clothes and everything, but some folks can really take it too far. For me, the use of a sidelock with PRB and real black powder is enough to be a traditional shooter. Wearing buckskins and a coonskin cap doesn't change the dynamics of shooting a traditional muzzleloader. It may add to the experience of a re-enactment or even a traditional hunt, but it certainly doesn't change the way you shoot from the time you finish loading to the time you pull the trigger, and it certainly doesn't change the way you shoot off a firing line.
You only take one shot at a time, so don't waste it :cb2:

Offline roundball

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Re: What is "Traditional"?
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2006, 02:37:24 PM »
Unfortunately, I categorize those type of people as jerks !

EVERYBODY starts out at the same place...and a mature, experienced person in that group could have realized you were new, obviously your first time out, and that you had a long (years) journey ahead of you...just like they did.

ALL of them could have behaved better...and at least ONE of them could have discreetly pulled you aside and had a positive, helpful, constructive conversation with you, gave you some tips, referred you to some reading, etc, etc.

The double bad news about those occurances, and I've seen many posts like yours, is that it can turn people off...I for one will not EVER bother to get involved with a club, a rondy, or a shoot that requires "traditional" dress, accoutrements, whatever...because I KNOW I would not have accumulated everything that THEY think I should have, and I have no patience for people who display that holier-than-thou attitude.

I enjoy shooting my Flintlocks every weekend year round for the fun and practice of it, my range box is a large MTM plastic one, and I wear blue jeans or shorts depending...nobody else shoots muzzleloaders at the little private range I use, and most of the few others that might show up are interested in what I'm doing, I explain things, let them shoot a flintlock, etc...and they're always thrilled afterwards.

Then I hunt with Flintlocks every weekend in the fall wearing modern warm & dry hunting clothes & boots....never shot competition or won a trophy, but I fill all my buck tags every year with Flintlocks and PRBs...this year was two 10's, an 8, and a 4 point...it's a hobby, a sport, we should enjoy it, not put up with jerks.

Good luck...
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline captchee

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What is "Traditional"?
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2006, 03:04:29 PM »
being traditional and period correct are not the same thing ,.
 I agree with round ball here and would only add that most likely those very people who ran you into the ground were only traditional in their mind

Offline Slamfire

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What is "Traditional"?
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2006, 04:39:12 PM »
Loosely speaking, any non inline is "traditional". I've gone to underhammers as they are pc back to 1835, and most clubs have an 1840 cut off date. However the purists really don't like anything but side hammer flintlocks. The underhammer is just my way of pullin' on thier chains.  :-D
Bold talk from a one eyed fat man.

Offline captchee

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What is "Traditional"?
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2006, 03:55:48 AM »
Quote
Loosely speaking, any non inline is "traditional". I've gone to underhammers as they are pc back to 1835, and most clubs have an 1840 cut off date. However the purists really don't like anything but side hammer flintlocks. The underhammer is just my way of pullin' on thier chains.


LMAO round ball is probably going AHHHHH now why did he have to go there .
 I love  it when subjects  on  whats traditional and whats not turn this way and especially when the 1840 rule gets applied . The under hammer dates back much before 1835  clear back to ?? I thin 1750 ?/ there abouts any way . The first ones were  in fact flintlock .

 Now as to the  inline . The inline “ignition  system” dates back to the beginning  of  hand and shoulder fired weapons . There are even drawings  depicting maximizing soldiers firing inline ignition weapons . Now to clarify here these are not nor in any was associated with modern inline  muzzle loading firearms  in shape  design of components or base of design purpose . IMO The basic ignition used by most modern muzzle loading firearms did not come about until late in the  19  century and then the ignition  design was nut one of a muzzleloader but one of a center fire breech loader .

 But back to topic  
 Through the years the inline ignition evolved  from fuse  to fuse lock , flintlock and percussion systems .
 The early hale rifles were of an inline ignition and later  became breech loading flintlock and   in fact most likely  according to production numbers they would have out numbers  what the Hawkin brothers could have produced in 36 years and that just between the years of 1809 -1836 . Most  documentation seems to put the Bros and around 300 rifles a year at the peak of their production .
 so by there own numbers a loan the breech loading systems may have out numbers  muzzleloaders  in some areas of this country .

 Another thing that many over look with the 1840 rule is that  there is a big question mark as to  “if” percussion was a prevalent in the mountains as we think . Not to mention that many of the rifles we see at pre 1840 events today are not pre 1840   but designs of 1850 and 1860 rifles .
 See somewhere the accepted rule was that these plains style  rifle were the norm ,. did they exist sure probably  but how common were they .

  If we take the weapons of the Alamo  The date is 1836 just four short years from the last rendezvous , surly here would hold a cross section of the most common weapons of the time . Cap lock, muskets, fowlers and flint long rifles . However what was really there and what is missing that you would think would be there, considering the common use of them today by the pre 1840 rules and the opinion of commonality

http://www.geocities.com/the_tarins@sbcglobal.net/adp/history/1836/the_battle/the_weapons/small_arms.html

IMO  traditional is based somewhat on this
Traditional = not specific but general and over all in shape form and appearance. As time goes on more items are often added to this category
Period correct = is for a give time period , using materials available at the time and specific to the location , person , people of the chosen time based on the accepted documentation of that chosen time for right or wrong .

 So don’t be put off by the  so called 1840 rule  as its most likely defined more by Hollywood them by actual documentation

 don’t get me wrong here  1840 seems like a good cut off “BUT” if we are to follow it  then lets follow it .

Offline Anduril

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What is "Traditional"?
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2006, 09:27:22 AM »
"At the end of the day the guys told me I was a good sport about it..........."
Sounds like they are not TOTAL jerks.

"I held up two first place trophys and asked them how many they got..........no responce.... "" some how I get the feeling that they won't forget me"
Don't let them forget. :)  Go back to their next shoot with your TC or CVA or whatever. Wear your jeans and ball cap. Hell, wear flip-flops! If they are going to outshoot you with their PC attitude, make them EARN it. 'Course if it's a rondy or some other kind of special event with posted rools about Period Dress then you might want to tone it down some.

Offline Swamp Yankee

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What is "Traditional"?
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2006, 10:02:33 AM »
Roundball,
   If the truth be knowen, I've been shooting sidelocks now for almost 14 years.  I've also used that same tackle box for most of them, plenty of room and lots of compartments. The change over was long overdue but sometimes it's hard to part with something that worked so well.  If I can get my daughter to help me I'll try and post a picture or two of the new box.
   I figure being an outsider [a non member of their club] that I was an easy target, but all in all it didn't bother me and as I look back now it was kinda funny. Besides I walked off with two first place trophys, one for percussion and the other was an open class. So........ I got the last laugh. They have a shoot some time in March and I plan on going back. Maybe I'll work on some snappy come-backs
Thanks for the responces........Jim

Offline sharps4590

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What is "Traditional"?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2006, 02:07:09 AM »
If the match is supposed to require period dress that little tidbit of info should have been made public.  I've shot lots of matches dressed almost as you described and almost as many looking like I stepped out of the 18th or 19th century....and several looking like I stepped out of a combination of the 18th, 19th and 20th century....that was back when I started in the early to mid 70's.

Personally......ya done good!!!!!  Iffn' ya wanna go period it's a lot of fun and if you don't, shootin' the rifles is still a lot of fun.......especially when you walk off with the 1st place trophies as you did!  Good luck and good shootin'.

Vic
NRA Patron, 2006
NRA Endowment, 1996
NRA Life, 1988
NAHC Life, 1985
There is no right way to do a wrong thing

Offline Slamfire

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What is "Traditional"?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2006, 03:32:59 PM »
When I said my underhammer was pc back to 1835, I meant my Hopkins & Allen was in production at that time.
I have seen photos of the inline flintlock in the British firearms museum's collection.
As for did any make it to the mountains before 1840, the participants never mention that somebody had to haul the goods to the Rondy, so folks other than free trappers were in attendance.
 :D
Bold talk from a one eyed fat man.

Offline flintlock54

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What is "Traditional"?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2006, 03:46:44 PM »
I been shooting muzzleloaders for twenty plus years. Not long but long enough. I own four rifles, one Knight inline, two T/C  Renagades, one custom early virginia longrifle. I really did not become aware of what it means to be traditional until I aquired the longrifle. I do not own period clothing or shoot matches but have a custom hunting bag and horn. The feel and thrill of shooting a longrifle is like non other. This past year I deer hunted with my longrifle,  hunting bag and horn. What I am trying to say is that the term tradition really means more to some folks than others. There was a time when hunting with a capped T/C made me feel like I was hunting primitive. Now that I have taken a further step back my commercial off the shelf semi-modern rifles just don't seem that traditional anymore.
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Offline dodd3

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What is "Traditional"?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2006, 03:53:39 PM »
swomp yankee i bet those guys when go hunting with there muzzeloaders dont wear traditional cloths i bet they wear camo.
bernie :wink:
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Offline Swamp Yankee

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What is "Traditional"?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2006, 11:02:03 AM »
Here are some pictures of the new range box and the trophys.





Offline Woodbutcher

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Traditional
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2006, 12:35:32 PM »
Dear Swamp Yankee:
 Very nice looking work, and good shootin too! Let'm bray, your work speaks for itself. If you speak, I'll listen.  Woodbutcher

Offline lostid

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re
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2006, 04:42:09 PM »
Looks gud.
 Thats a nice way to fill a Remington gift box. And too think those guy's were giving you a hard tyme about trad" stuff!! I mean "gosh" ya just never know when you'll need a que-tip or a film canister!!
 Hevin forbid a possibles bag will ever hold that kinda stuff!
i'm a realist. i've not seen it all, but man ,,I've Been Around the block once or twice