Author Topic: What's next ? (Read 2081 times)

ppk1 · « **on:** February 14, 2006, 02:08:00 AM »

Are we going to see the end of the 'heavy gun' or at least a significant decline of their presence at the matches this year? Is Aunshutz trying to tell us something with the end of the 54.18?
I'm considering replacing my aging 64 but heistate to build a or buy something of equal greth and weight after seeing a big change on the firing line this past year.
How about some opinions?

nomad · « **Reply #1 on:** February 14, 2006, 03:47:20 AM »

IMO, under the current rules -- which will, I hope, remain stable for a while! -- the only thing the Hunter gives up to the Heavy is a questionable advantage in hold due to the weight issue.
(I gather that we're talking SB here -- but with the allowance of wildcats in HP, the same surely holds true there.)

I've watched Cathy shoot 3 (4?) 40s and IIRC they've all been with the Htr. (She has at least 1 in Std but she was shooting her Htr as a Std in the match that I saw.)

Why shoot 2 guns, 2 triggers...? Why even lug 2 to the match?

dave imas · « **Reply #2 on:** February 14, 2006, 09:32:14 AM »

i'm with Ernie. the Mark Pharr hunter rifle stocks are built to the limits of a standard rifle stock. the only thing one gives up is weight. i was long ago convinced that balance is more important that weight so when balanced correctly, 8.5lbs is more than enough. with the two stage triggers the lighter trigger on the standard rifle isn't a significant advantage. even without a two stage trigger the hunter rifles compete. a clean breaking consistent single stage two pound trigger can be shot extremely well. mule one rifle to the range, sight one rifle in, test ammunition for one rifle. double your trigger time with the one rifle.
dave imas

Quonset Hut · « **Reply #3 on:** February 14, 2006, 08:06:15 PM »

Cheating, gaming, and desires for more gun than the class allows by the top shooters has caused rule changes in NRA Silhouette and High Power that tend to limit the newer shooter. The exception was raising the weight limit from 7.5 to 8.5# in SBHR, which legend states was done for one domestic maker who cried because he couldn't get his gun under the limit. This allowed a number of wood stocked existing Anschutz, and the briefly imported NS-522 to be used. We'll see if my Swedish Mauser Sporter is allowed in Hunter with original barrel, or if it is only OK if I spend as much again as the rifle is worth to get a "hunting" taper barrel instead of the stepped military contour.

Long ago, in Silhouette, two stage triggers were banned in Htr because of some fooling with 54 action triggers involving parts removal and/or reversal. A gun I was about to buy, a $260 rimfire Mauser, instantly became illegal. About that time, I wanted to shoot some regular High Power matches to get the DCM Garand. The .50BMG rifles had just come out and some were worried about them ruining long range. So the NRA banned over .30 cal. Of course, I was going to use a family Rem 8 in .35 Rem because I didn't feel like mooching someone's gun - denied! Later the NRA came to its senses and made the limit .35 Cal.

Now you can have all types of Frankenhunters at just about any cost. I realize that one could drop in a same countour Shilen barrel under the old rules. My 54-18 is a dual purpose gun as I had Neil Johnson add a rail for indoor position shooting.

How we got to the current rules, I don't know - I've been out of touch. But the last thing I want is for someone who followed the rules to find that the new rulebook bans their rifle...

Quonset Hut · « **Reply #4 on:** February 14, 2006, 08:09:15 PM »

Cheating, gaming, and desires for more gun than the class allows by the top shooters has caused rule changes in NRA Silhouette and High Power that tend to limit the newer shooter. The exception was raising the weight limit from 7.5 to 8.5# in SBHR, which legend states was done for one domestic maker who cried because he couldn't get his gun under the limit. This allowed a number of wood stocked existing Anschutz, and the briefly imported NS-522 to be used. We'll see if my Swedish Mauser Sporter is allowed in Hunter with original barrel, or if it is only OK if I spend as much again as the rifle is worth to get a "hunting" taper barrel instead of the stepped military contour.

Long ago, in Silhouette, two stage triggers were banned in Htr because of some fooling with 54 action triggers involving parts removal and/or reversal. A gun I was about to buy, a $260 rimfire Mauser, instantly became illegal. About that time, I wanted to shoot some regular High Power matches to get the DCM Garand. The .50BMG rifles had just come out and some were worried about them ruining long range. So the NRA banned over .30 cal. Of course, I was going to use a family Rem 8 in .35 Rem because I didn't feel like mooching someone's gun - denied! Later the NRA came to its senses and made the limit .35 Cal.

Now you can have all types of Frankenhunters at just about any cost. I realize that one could drop in a same countour Shilen barrel under the old rules. My 54-18 is a dual purpose gun as I had Neil Johnson add a rail for indoor position shooting.

How we got to the current rules, I don't know - I've been out of touch. But the last thing I want is for someone who followed the rules to find that the new rulebook bans their rifle...

dave imas · « **Reply #5 on:** February 15, 2006, 03:12:34 AM »

Mr. Hut,
Not attempting to speak about what rules were and how they might have got to where they are. Just that the rules currently state that if a rifle looks, walks, and talks like a hunter, it is a hunter. 8.5lbs. tapered barrel. 2lb trigger pull. 1.5" height for scope. those are the rules. as far as i know the definition for tapered is smaller at the muzzle end than at the chambered end. How we got here was a messy and painful process which doesn't bare remembering nor rehashing. here we are. the rules are pretty inclusive and allow for lots of flexibility if one uses a modicum of common sense. we all have our stories of how we were done wrong in previous years. seems best to let them go and enjoy what we have now.
great fortunes upon you and welcome back!
dave imas

nomad · « **Reply #6 on:** February 15, 2006, 03:43:33 AM »

QH,

You're right -- and wrong.

Just as you point out, there were bad things going on that led to the rule changes.
The problem was that no one complaining seemed to be able -- or prepared -- to write a bulletproof rule that would have eliminated those problems. As a result, we got what we have. (When this was happening, many of us asked the complainers to just give us the wording that would prevent rule subversion but no one did. It seems that a lot of people found that it's easier to complain than to fix things!)

I don't agree that the current rule limits the beginners. At all but the highest levels, shooters are limited more by personal development than by equipment. (The latest whiz-bang phaser-rifle won't deliver 33/40s for an A class shooter.)
The guys at the top will buy the gear they need to stay there anyway and the cost won't stop them.

This has all been hashed out ad nauseum. Reopening the worm can won't help anything.

What we currently have is working very well and most of us are happy with it.

As for cost, I think that it's come DOWN! I'd rather spend $2K on one do-it-all rifle/scope ($1400 rifle and $600 optics w/mount) than put $1200 into two scopes and mounts and still have to buy 2 rifles to put under them!

Now we should work at dumping the two-class idea in SB and HP and just shoot one class in each with expanded matches!

ppk1 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 15, 2006, 04:22:45 AM »

Thanks for the input so far. I didn't think this would become a rules issue but as explained it does have some rule implications.
My observation was that many shooters can't justify a heavy gun anymore when their scores are so close with using a hunter in both classes given the fact that the 1712 two stage trigger is legal in hunter.
I should have clarified that this observation was for SB only. I don't shoot HP.

Quonset Hut · « **Reply #8 on:** February 15, 2006, 04:58:09 AM »

Quote from: nomad

QH,

I don't agree that the current rule limits the beginners. At all but the highest levels, shooters are limited more by personal development than by equipment. (The latest whiz-bang phaser-rifle won't deliver 33/40s for an A class shooter.)
The guys at the top will buy the gear they need to stay there anyway and the cost won't stop them.

I guess this change was not as much limiting as blowing out the mid-top end in terms of cost. As you mentioned, the better shooters will prevail and some folks will pay what they feel they must. I thought of something else. You might get slightly tapered 10/22 barrels and other parts that might make that gun work in Hunter - which are not that expensive and can be incrementally added!

dwl · « **Reply #9 on:** February 15, 2006, 07:47:31 AM »

Hut may have a good point here regarding the 10/22s. I run a winter indoor silhouette league up here. I'm always on the lookout for new shooters. A few of those who joined us new this year asked if it was ok for them to shoot gussied up 10/22s.

Since the 50' indoor shoots aren't sanctioned matches I told them fine. I've been very interested to see that some of those 10/22s can shoot pretty well with the after market triggers, barrels and stocks. The stocks and bull barrels would put them right into Standard Rifle but these guys don't care. They're shooting and learning and having a good time. I'd like to see them keep on shooting so I'm going to re-read the rules and make sure they're ok in Std class.

Come to think of it, they're having so much fun building their own guns that I was thinking, that old 10/22 at home has a lousy trigger, what would it cost for a trigger job, a barrel and a new stock? Will someone make a heavier tapered barrel? How about a Nesika/Pharr stock for the 10/22. This could be really good if we could build a Hunter 10/22.

Hmm, maybe there's a market here.

dwl

GTS · « **Reply #10 on:** February 15, 2006, 12:18:12 PM »

DWL,

Green Mountain has a heavy tapered sporter barrel for the 10/22. I believe it tapers from .920" to .60".

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/catalog.aspx?catid=10-22.920SporterDiameterBarrels

GTS

Mike Sporer · « **Reply #11 on:** February 15, 2006, 10:55:39 PM »

Pete,

At this point, it's all about finding the set-up that suits your preferences best. I shoot a heavy gun because I can use a long bull barrel to achieve the nice muzzle heavy feel that I like. IMO, a shooter who likes a more neutral feel would get less of a benefit from a heavier gun.

And I'm all for the previous suggestion of combining things into 1 class. Just use the rules for the heavy class and have everyone shoot together. There's only a 1 or 2 point differnece between the classes now anyway so why bother with 2 separate classes? The limitation lies with the shooter, not the gun.

Sincerely,

Mike Sporer
BCSA Silhouette

Jerry G · « **Reply #12 on:** February 16, 2006, 11:47:53 AM »

So!!!!! Anybody wanna buy my 54?

I am gonna keep the 18x40 scope.

1armoured · « **Reply #13 on:** February 16, 2006, 01:04:18 PM »

G'day all,

I think the idea of two rifle classes is great ! (You get to shoot twice on a day, or a week-end !)

Although three classes in Air-rifle is a bit over the top in my opinion !

The NRA Hunter rules have steadily crept closer to the Heavy Rifle, to the point where there is little distinguishing them.

The 'International' MS Union rules for Continental and World champs, and to which everyone except the USA conforms to, makes more of a distinction between the two rifle classes, both s/b and High Power, and up to now, has resisted 'wildcats' and replacement barrels etc that do not conform to factory originals.

The s/b Hunter weight is restricted to 7lb 11ozs (3.5kg)

I shoot one rifle in both s/b classes (1712FWT) and a Sako 75 .308 in both High Power classes. Both to keep the costs down, not have to lug four rifles around, and also I feel more comfortable with a lighter weight rifle.
(However, the new 1712 with the walnut stock and two stage trigger sounds like it would be a better bet for me as a Heavy s/b rifle !)

I compete quite happily against my peers in my classification/grade, as that is what the classification/grading system was devised to do, and have been through the grades since I started shooting Silhouette 16 years ago.

I do not necessarily compete with the top Master Grade shooters,
(although it would be great to beat them on occassions !)

Youngsters and beginners starting in the bottom grades are not necessarily hampered by their equipment. but more so by their inexperience and ability.

As they improve and mature, one would expect them to also accumulate better gear as they become more competitive, as I did.

I do think, however, that there should be more of a distinction between the Heavy and Light rifles.
It makes it all more interesting !

Hope you're all watching and encouraging the 'Biathlon' shooters at the Winter Olympics in Italy !

cheers,

Sean in 'Godzone'

nomad · « **Reply #14 on:** February 16, 2006, 03:50:33 PM »

Good God! That was clear, succinct and well-put!
Is it possible that all the Australians I've talked with have been wrong about people from New Zealand? :-D

ppk1 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 17, 2006, 01:00:23 AM »

Sean, You are right. The differences between the two guns (classes) have become blurred by the increse in allowances for the SBHunter and the diminishing SBStandard allowable alterations.
Oh for the days when we had the "Chin Gun" that really showed a difference in the two classes.
Pete

dave imas · « **Reply #16 on:** February 17, 2006, 04:32:07 AM »

i shot a chin gun for awhile... boy did my average drop! perhaps one of the worst things i've to my shooting career. they certainly looked different!

dave imas · « **Reply #17 on:** February 17, 2006, 04:36:25 AM »

i shot a chin gun for awhile... boy did my average drop! perhaps one of the worst things i've done to my shooting career. they certainly looked different tho!

Varn1808 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2006, 11:38:40 AM »

I think we are definitely on the wrong track if we are considering combining the two classes. On a personal note, I have a 54MS SB gun and a custom HB .260 in an MS style stock for HP. In spite of this, I shoot my 1712FWT in both classes for SB. I shoot a pair of Hunters in HP. I do this by choice since I find I am more consistent with the hunter style guns. I agree that the scores are not that much different between the two classes at the upper levels. That being said, I don't feel that just because I shoot a Hunter in both classes should I or anyone else be able to determine for another shooter that they must do the same. If someone chooses to shoot a heavy gun with a light trigger by all means they should be able to do so. Not all beginning shooters (or some experienced shooters for that matter) possess the trigger control required to shoot a two pound trigger. There has been allot of money invested in equipment for the standard class. To make that rifle illegal would be a grave injustice. We just went through this debacle in the PCP sporter and this sport doesn't need it again.
If we were going to change any rules in the standard class we should consider raising the weight limit to 10 1/2 lbs. I'm not really advocating changing this rule either, just a point to consider. Under the current 10lb 2 oz rule a person cannot buy a Rem 700 Varmint or any other varmint barreled rifle and put a scope on it and make weight with it. It requires lightweight rings and bases and removal of stock material to have any hope of making it. 10 1/2 lbs would enable a beginning shooter to come with his varmint rig with steel rings and bases and variable scope and try the sport without an unnecessary outlay of money.
I feel Dave Imas was on the money when he stated that it has been a long road to come up with the rules that we have and we should just shoot as they are. No need for further controversy.
We would also be shortchanging our clubs with a combined class. They profit from the two gun entry fees and from the increased participation it allows. The clubs I shoot at here in PA generally charge $12 entry fee for one gun and $20 entry fee for two guns. I seriously doubt that anyone would be in favor of a $20 entry fee for an expanded program with just one gun and one set of awards. Awards and trophies are especially important for beginning shooters and limiting the award base might just well discourage some beginning and less proficient shooters from participating. We need to try to keep all shooters in mind when considering rule changes, not just the ideas of experienced and more proficient ones. Mark Varner

1armoured · « **Reply #19 on:** February 19, 2006, 04:04:06 PM »

Greetings Nomad,
you've got the wrong end of the stick. It's the Aussies that are descended from a British penal colony. We're the smart ones. That's why we live in New Zealand.
We have a love hate relationship with them, esp when it comes to sport,

but we fight side-by-side when 'push comes to shove'

(Maybe you're just talking to the wrong Aussies ?)

We both shoot two class of rifles, keep rules to the bare minimum necessary, and happy to keep it that way.

cheers,
Sean

Mike Sporer · « **Reply #20 on:** February 20, 2006, 02:32:29 AM »

Mark,

I don't really think anyone is advocating a rule change. We're just saying what we think. At least for smallbore, I think we could easily combine the 2 classes into 1 under the rules of the standard class. This way no one's equipment becomes obsolete. But am I going to lobby the NRA for a rule change? Nope - I agree with you that changing an estabished rule just for the sake of change is not a good thing.

I run the silo show for the BCSA just outside of Binghamton, NY. We charge $3.00 for 2 rounds or smallbore (not $3.00 per round, $3.00 for both!) during the week. On Super Silhouette Saturday you'll get smallbore, smallbore cowboy, and air rifle for $5.00. Looks like you folks in PA should make a few trips north of the border

Sincerely,

Mike Sporer

ppk1 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 20, 2006, 03:43:40 AM »

Not advocating any rule changes here either......but isn't what's happening on the line now going to change the sport at least in the heavy rifle class.
I love my 8 oz trigger and actually have two Jewel triggers that fit my Ultra Light Arms Hunter. A 2.25 for silhouette and a 8 oz. for a game we call Sporterifle in NY sanctioned by the NYSRPS.
Just for my own experiment last season I started to shoot my Hunter in Standard class with the 8 oz trigger. It was very comfortable and I didn't have to lift the 10 lb. gun. My scores where as good as with my Anschutz heavy gun with a lot less work.
I'm really considering mounting an action in a Pharr stock (some guys have there 1712's being worked on right now) and will be doing a lot of looking at how other people are approaching this during the upcoming silhouette season.

nomad · « **Reply #22 on:** February 20, 2006, 04:40:42 AM »

Mark, et al,

If I could figure a really fair way to make it work -- I can't -- I'd propose the consolidation of the classes in a second!

At any major match, we get into marathons with at least 2 40-shot matches per day and, at the end, all that usually means is that the same people collect the top awards TWICE instead of just ONCE.

I've discussed this with some pretty high-level competitors and most say that they'd much rather shoot one gun 60x60/day for a championship than two different guns in 40x40s.

But I can't think of a way to consolidate without causing hardships and creating hard feelings...and the game doesn't need any more contention. (We step on our own 'privates' enough, by accident, without trying to do it deliberately!) That in mind, I'm certainly NOT going to pursue the idea -- for now anyway -- at any level higher than this sort of casual conversation.
('IF', however, we reach the point where the VAST majority of people gravitate VOLUNTARILY to one gun -- and many are doing just that, with a Hunter, under the current rules -- and the standard gun becomes a minority in its own matches, THEN, IMO, we should seriously consider consolidating.)

Sean,

I've been to your part of the world and always figured the Australians telling jokes about New Zealanders were just jealous! lol
(If we're dumb enough to ever elect another dimmycrap up here again, is there room down there for another silhouette shooter or two?) :wink:

Quonset Hut · « **Reply #23 on:** February 20, 2006, 08:30:28 AM »

When I blow a match with one gun, I've got the other hopefully still decent! We tried a state championship where you had an 80 shot Standard match Saturday and an 80 shot Hunter match Sunday. It worked well as some folks had a conflict but still could make one match.

drags · « **Reply #24 on:** February 20, 2006, 10:49:54 AM »

I agree with varn 1808 the only change if any should be to raise the weight limit in standard, but raise it to 11lbs. instead of 10 1/2 lbs. Going to one class would be going backwards IMO. At williamsport 1000yd. benchrest they are losing shooters because they fire a few sighters and 10 shots for record and go home the young shooters want to shoot more not less and if you don't bring in young shooters the sport will die. I believe if highpower silhouette was in the olympics it would really advance the sport and attract many new shooters. High power silhouette IMO is a very attractive spectator sport. I believe are efforts would be better served trying to get the sport in the olympics than changing the rules to one class so we could shoot less and have less guns to buy.
Drags

Heavybarrel · « **Reply #25 on:** February 20, 2006, 01:24:07 PM »

Hello Gentleman,
I'm replying to Mr. Kuneys reply. I shoot this sport for the love of the game and shooting. When I go to a match, I plan nothing else for the day,this day is dedicated to shooting. I enjoy shooting 2 classes regardless if I shoot a hunter in both or 2 guns. I got in this sport because I want to shoot and I want to shoot as many shots as possible.
Here in PA Standard guns still outnumber hunter guns in a match.(at least the matches I attend) I do not mean to be disrespectfull to you or your high level competitoers but if a day of silhouette shooting is too much maybe it's time for a new sport. There has been enough rule changes in the past 3 or 4 years that I know for a fact have chased shooters away from the game.People shoot this game for the love of shooting and enjoyment,not to buy equipment and a year or 2 later have the rules changed. Please keep in mind this game entails ALL levels of competitors who want to shoot.