Author Topic: 380 vs 9 mm  (Read 7732 times)

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Offline Ghostrider_23

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380 vs 9 mm
« on: January 28, 2006, 12:12:38 PM »
Which would make a better carry gun. A Walther PPKS in 380 or a Kahr PM9 in 9 mm?? I mean a 380 is nothing more than a 9 mm short. Which have you all had better MOA with and which would have a better stopping power???[/b]

Offline hogship

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2006, 03:53:30 PM »
I don't think either one of your choices are likely to be a disappointment.

By asking about moa, I assume you are enquiring about accuracy. For the intended purpose, accuracy isn't much of a consideration. However I suspect the PPK/s will give the better accuracy, since it has a fixed barrel.

Of course, the 9mm will give the best stopping power of the two, but the 380 (or 9mm kurz) isn't that far behind. It may give you a visual conception better to understand you are comparing a 9x17 to a 9x19.

Which is the best of the two pistols you mention? That's difficult to say. I have both a Kahr k40 and a Smith PPK/s.....I like them both for quality, and I'd personally recommend either manufacturer.

The Walther doesn't have a manual slide release lever, and has a decocker. The Kahr doesn't need a decocker, because it's DAO.

This, in the end, may boil down to which one you like best. If I had to choose between your two choices, I'd have a difficult time deciding .

hog

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Offline Nuttinbutchunks

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2006, 04:28:05 PM »
For me it's a no brainer. I'd go with the 9, just because of the stopping power. I'd load it with 124 gr Speer Gold dot ammo. If you're comfortable with a larger round, the 40 S&W is even better. But this is coming from a guy that carries a .45 ACP Springfield. I like what someone says in his signature. "If you're gonna blos a hole in someone, make it a big one".

When YOUR life is at fisk, you can't have a big enough gun. :grin:
Ohhhh, I hate when that happens :eek:

Offline Ghostrider_23

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NICE COLLECTION
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2006, 02:05:58 AM »
HOG thank you very much for your input and it'salso nice to see I'm not the only one with the sickness for guns and CCW. I have a question for you. What are the brown holsters at the top? Do they go into the back pocket or on a belt and who makes them? I had started collecting firearms because I was trying to find one that I shoot well with at the range and can carry around. Years later after currently have 19 guns and owning over forty that range guns and CCW guns are two different animals. As time goes on I find that comfort takes over to what I am willing to carry and I find myself taking the Kel-Tec 32 acp out. But I think that I need something with a little bit more take down power. I have a Walter PPKS in 380 and I shoot very nicely with it, but it is a little heavy. So, I am looking at the Kahr 9 mm and the Kel-Tec P-11. Do you think I need to carry more fire power and which of the three guns would you go with??

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Offline Ghostrider_23

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9 MM wins hands down some say
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2006, 02:42:43 AM »
So for a short-barreled, concealment-size pocket pistol, all features of the guns being equal, which cartridge choice is best for personal defense, .380 or 9mm? Some have argued that in the very short barrels (in the 3.0- to 3.25-inch range) typically found on small pistols, the apparent ballistic advantage of the longer case 9mm is canceled and the two loads’ performances are essentially the same. My own actual side-by-side testing doesn’t prove that out. In fact, there really isn’t very much of a contest at all. The 9mm wins hands down.
The 9mm Luger cartridge (also known as the 9mm Parabellum, 9mm NATO, and 9x19mm) is actually the oldest of today’s mainstream semiautomatic pistol rounds (it was introduced in 1902), but because of its comparatively recent surge to popularity in this country, most American shooters think of it as relatively “modern” in comparison to other popular autoloader cartridges like the .45 ACP (1905). The .380 ACP is nothing other than a short 9mm (its German name, in fact, 9mm Kurtz, literally translates as 9mm Short), and like the .22 Short in relation to the .22 Long Rifle, or even the .38 Special in relation to the .357 Magnum, the shorter cartridge has only a portion of the authority of the longer 9mm.
In Europe the .380 Auto/9mm Short has at various times been an official military cartridge, and it is much favored by police agencies in many nations as a primary duty round. In the US it has always been seen as a minor-power backup load. And, compared to the 9mm, that’s where it belongs.
SAAMI industry-standard catalog specifications for the two cartridges rate the .380 at approximately 950 fps velocity and 200 foot-pounds (ft-lbs) energy for JHP bullets in the 90- to 100-grain weight range while the 9mm (which is offered in a much wider range of bullet weights and styles) is specced at 1150 fps and 340 ft-lbs energy with a 115-grain JHP bullet and 990 fps and 320 ft-lbs energy with heavier 147-grain JHP subsonic loads. In raw energy terms alone, then, the 9mm has about a 65 percent advantage. (Standard four-inch ballistic test barrels are employed for the SAAMI ratings for both cartridges.) However, in view of the fact that actual cartridge effect in target is always more determined by bullet design and performance than by mathematical energy formulas, particularly when using guns with barrels shorter than SAAMI test fixtures, I (several years ago) fired a series of commercial 9mm and .380 loads from compact pistols into 10-percent ballistic gelatin blocks calibrated to FBI evaluation standards to gauge their impact effectiveness with the gel set at a personal-defense distance of20 feet. I was interested in determining whether these two cartridges’ performance in actual guns corresponded to their “on paper” ratings. This was when down-sized 9mm pistols had just begun to enter the market in sizable numbers following the enactment of the 1994 Crime bill’s magazine limitations, and the pistols used were a 3.5-inch Star Firestar for the 9mm and a three-inch S&W Baby Sigma for the .380 ACP. When I reported the results, which were overwhelmingly in favor of the 9mm, I received response from fans of the .380 who argued that the half-inch longer barrel of the Firestar pistol gave the 9mm an unfair advantage in my comparison, and that if I’d used guns of the same barrel length the .380 would have ranked much better in comparison. I was confident of the basic “balance of power” my results indicated but also acknowledged that with short-barrel guns sometimes a very slight increase or decrease in absolute length can have a significant effect on bullet velocity, depending on particular powders and their burn rates. So when Taurus introduced its Millennium series of pocket-size compact autos a couple of years ago with identically configured 9mm and .380 versions, I resolved to redo the gel-performance review. Both the Taurus Millennium model PT111 9mm and the model PT138 .380 are identical in features, size, and 3.25-inch barrel length, with the only difference between them being the actual specifications of the cartridge firing chambers.
The results of my side-by-side review firings with today’s premium defense loads are listed in the chart on page 23 and closely correspond to the Firestar versus Baby Sigma results from four years ago. Overall, the 9mm provides a 40 percent greater wounding effectiveness (based on wound channel surface area) than does the .380. When equivalent bullet designs in the two cartridges are compared directly (for example, the Winchester SXTs and Remington Golden Sabers), the distinction is obvious. The .380 is simply not in the same performance class as the 9mm, even though the subjective experience of firing the two pistols is very much the same.
If your personal-defense handgun is going to be a small autoloader, and you are buying it because the chance exists that it may someday have to save your life, the choice between a .380 or a 9mm is still a no-brainer. Get a 9mm.

Offline Ghostrider_23

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9 MM wins hands down some say
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2006, 02:52:29 AM »
So for a short-barreled, concealment-size pocket pistol, all features of the guns being equal, which cartridge choice is best for personal defense, .380 or 9mm? Some have argued that in the very short barrels (in the 3.0- to 3.25-inch range) typically found on small pistols, the apparent ballistic advantage of the longer case 9mm is canceled and the two loads’ performances are essentially the same. My own actual side-by-side testing doesn’t prove that out. In fact, there really isn’t very much of a contest at all. The 9mm wins hands down.
The 9mm Luger cartridge (also known as the 9mm Parabellum, 9mm NATO, and 9x19mm) is actually the oldest of today’s mainstream semiautomatic pistol rounds (it was introduced in 1902), but because of its comparatively recent surge to popularity in this country, most American shooters think of it as relatively “modern” in comparison to other popular autoloader cartridges like the .45 ACP (1905). The .380 ACP is nothing other than a short 9mm (its German name, in fact, 9mm Kurtz, literally translates as 9mm Short), and like the .22 Short in relation to the .22 Long Rifle, or even the .38 Special in relation to the .357 Magnum, the shorter cartridge has only a portion of the authority of the longer 9mm.
In Europe the .380 Auto/9mm Short has at various times been an official military cartridge, and it is much favored by police agencies in many nations as a primary duty round. In the US it has always been seen as a minor-power backup load. And, compared to the 9mm, that’s where it belongs.
SAAMI industry-standard catalog specifications for the two cartridges rate the .380 at approximately 950 fps velocity and 200 foot-pounds (ft-lbs) energy for JHP bullets in the 90- to 100-grain weight range while the 9mm (which is offered in a much wider range of bullet weights and styles) is specced at 1150 fps and 340 ft-lbs energy with a 115-grain JHP bullet and 990 fps and 320 ft-lbs energy with heavier 147-grain JHP subsonic loads. In raw energy terms alone, then, the 9mm has about a 65 percent advantage. (Standard four-inch ballistic test barrels are employed for the SAAMI ratings for both cartridges.) However, in view of the fact that actual cartridge effect in target is always more determined by bullet design and performance than by mathematical energy formulas, particularly when using guns with barrels shorter than SAAMI test fixtures, I (several years ago) fired a series of commercial 9mm and .380 loads from compact pistols into 10-percent ballistic gelatin blocks calibrated to FBI evaluation standards to gauge their impact effectiveness with the gel set at a personal-defense distance of20 feet. I was interested in determining whether these two cartridges’ performance in actual guns corresponded to their “on paper” ratings. This was when down-sized 9mm pistols had just begun to enter the market in sizable numbers following the enactment of the 1994 Crime bill’s magazine limitations, and the pistols used were a 3.5-inch Star Firestar for the 9mm and a three-inch S&W Baby Sigma for the .380 ACP. When I reported the results, which were overwhelmingly in favor of the 9mm, I received response from fans of the .380 who argued that the half-inch longer barrel of the Firestar pistol gave the 9mm an unfair advantage in my comparison, and that if I’d used guns of the same barrel length the .380 would have ranked much better in comparison. I was confident of the basic “balance of power” my results indicated but also acknowledged that with short-barrel guns sometimes a very slight increase or decrease in absolute length can have a significant effect on bullet velocity, depending on particular powders and their burn rates. So when Taurus introduced its Millennium series of pocket-size compact autos a couple of years ago with identically configured 9mm and .380 versions, I resolved to redo the gel-performance review. Both the Taurus Millennium model PT111 9mm and the model PT138 .380 are identical in features, size, and 3.25-inch barrel length, with the only difference between them being the actual specifications of the cartridge firing chambers.
The results of my side-by-side review firings with today’s premium defense loads are listed in the chart on page 23 and closely correspond to the Firestar versus Baby Sigma results from four years ago. Overall, the 9mm provides a 40 percent greater wounding effectiveness (based on wound channel surface area) than does the .380. When equivalent bullet designs in the two cartridges are compared directly (for example, the Winchester SXTs and Remington Golden Sabers), the distinction is obvious. The .380 is simply not in the same performance class as the 9mm, even though the subjective experience of firing the two pistols is very much the same.
If your personal-defense handgun is going to be a small autoloader, and you are buying it because the chance exists that it may someday have to save your life, the choice between a .380 or a 9mm is still a no-brainer. Get a 9mm.

Offline hogship

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2006, 02:55:05 AM »
Ghostrider......

The holsters you inquired about are Don Hume J.I.T. belt slides. They are great little holsters and not too expensive. The flap with the 2nd belt loop help keep the grip close in to the body. I like these holsters so well, I got more than one of them! If I'd known about them sooner than I did, I'd have more of them!

I have zero experience with the Kel-Tecs, so I'll let someone else chime in on them.....

hog

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Offline Ocsamschainsaw

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2006, 06:17:48 PM »
A .380 doesn't even begin to approach the potential the 9mm can perform at.
The 9mm operates at vastly higher pressures than the .380 can ever be safely used in in most production pistols.
That having been said..
I wouldn't feel outgunned carrying a .380. Why? It'll put someone in the ground just fine...
The .380 in most loadings actually operates at higher specs than many older .38 special standard pressure loads, which seem to work just fine.
I find it interesting when I see someone naysaying the .380, then carrying a j frame .38 with standard pressure nyclad loads in the cylinder...
Not too much difference, I'd think, though I do like the .38 +p's, and the fact that revolvers generally fit my smaller hands better.
A buddy of mine used to have one of beretta's 13 shot .380's, it was a pleasure to shoot and fit my hand perfectly. A bit bigger than most .380's, but I wouldn't, again, feel undergunned with it at all.
As for your ORIGNAL question, hehe..
I've always found the Walthers to be far too heavy for what they chamber-perhaps look into a kel-tec .380 or a makarov if you don't care about the weight?, same thing, cheaper, put 'em down just as well?
If I'm going to be carrying something as heavy as a PP or PPK..why not just carry a single stack 9mm, I'd think?
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Offline Redhawk1

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2006, 01:36:48 AM »
I also prefer the 9mm. Although the 380 will work.  :D
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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2006, 03:03:37 AM »
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Offline Savage

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2006, 07:18:40 AM »
The only advantage of the .380 over the 9mm, is that it is usually available in a smaller pistol. In a pistol the size of the PPK, you might  as well carry a more powerful chambering. For the .380, nothing larger than the P-3AT for me. Of the two mentioned, the Kahr for sure!
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Offline Sir Knight

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2006, 01:10:59 AM »
I'll take a Colt Pocket Nine ...



... same size as the PPK but instead of 6+1 rounds of .380ACP, it delivers 6+1 rounds of 9mm Parabellum!
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Offline K.K.

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2006, 02:45:57 PM »
9mm hands-down.  Lots of small hi-cap nines out there that are very reliable.

Offline williamlayton

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2006, 01:23:51 AM »
HUMMM, would carrying both my PPK's be as good as one 9MM??? :D  :oops:
You folks sure know how to make a guy get another gun.
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Offline jro45

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2006, 12:17:25 PM »
Theres no dought the 9mm is over the 380 and would do a better job. I own both. :D

Offline drdougrx

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2006, 02:17:07 PM »
Hey Will....

.......think we just got ourselves a new excuse to buy another gun!!!!! ;0)
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Offline sundogg1911

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2006, 03:31:49 PM »
my rule of thumb is to carry the biggest gun that I can easily conceal. In the Winter this is usually my CZ40B in 40 S&W, or my Springfield 1911 45. in the Summer monthes it's usually a NAA Guardian .32 in an Acker sharkskin pocket holster, and just about everything in between. If i'm doing a lot of driving it's usually a Taurus titanium model 85 in a cross draw. It would be nice to have one gun that would fill every need, but I don't think that there is one gun that could work for every need.

Offline K.K

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2006, 03:21:03 PM »
Today's market has a number of 9mm guns in the same size and weigh class as the 380 pistols.  I like larger calibers, but would choose the 9 over the .380 any day.  Cheap practice ammo abounds for it as well.  We all practice regularly with our carry guns, don't we?

Offline 257 roberts

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2006, 04:37:52 PM »
I'd go with the Walther ppk/s :D

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2006, 10:51:37 PM »
Lets see here. I will purchase a 9MM for pocket carry this year, I have a Walther .380 and carried it for 40 years.
I will probable end up carrying the 9MM but that sucker is going to have need to prove itself.
The Walther has a history of safty and performance. The design is simple and safe. Mine can be carried for months and just shoot the lint out of itself.
The fact of reliability is so much of an advantage, which many seem to overlook, in the PPK that it is hard for me switch. I am sure the Kahr is a fine little pistola, and that is the one I have been eyeing, but my buddy the PPK stainless is a friend, pure and simple. The Kahr will need to prove itself.
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Offline Savage

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2006, 11:22:49 PM »
Good morning!
Up early this morning William! I'm getting ready for work or I'd still be in the rack-----------. I too am a fan of the PPK, if it wasn't so heavy, I'd still be carrying one  myself! I think you'll be pleased with the Kahr.
Savage
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Offline S.S.

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380 vs 9 mm
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2006, 08:46:32 AM »
I have always been a fan of the .380 for concealed carry.
But in power there really is no comparison to the 9x19.
As far as in the micro sized carry pistols, there is one thing
that I really do not like about a 9x19. That is muzzle Blast/Flash!
If you ever have to fire one in very low light conditions, your night vision is gone! As well as your hearing for a few moments. The .380
is much more mild mannered in that regard. My personal backup is seldom encountered anymore, that being a Beretta model 70s.
In my opinion, it is one of the finest handguns Beretta has ever produced.
I also have an AMT Backup, but it just doesn't "ride" as well as the Beretta.
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