Author Topic: 223 for pig hunting up to 200 pounds? (Read 1134 times)

Questor · « **on:** March 08, 2006, 08:21:57 AM »

I've seen a lot of writing lately about using 223 for deer, and it seems to be adequate. How does the 223 do on pigs up to 200 pounds? What are the best bullets that will still work in a standard twist barrel?

ricciardelli · « **Reply #1 on:** March 08, 2006, 08:31:29 AM »

There is a big difference in the body structure between a deer and a pig.

Look at the skin, the fat layer and the bones.

I wouldn't suggest a 22 caliber for pigs.

Gallahad · « **Reply #2 on:** March 08, 2006, 01:19:07 PM »

This is just a thought. imagine taking a 1400 lb. cape buffalo with a 455 gr. solid. Is that feasable? It sounds about right to me, although i'm not a dangerous game hunter. now divide both of those numbers by 7. you trade the 1400 lbs. of heavy game for 200 lbs of heavy game, and a 455 gr. solid bullet for a 65 gr. solid bullet. Now think about a 65 gr. barnes triple shock bullet. (expansion with the penetration of a solid) and a 200 lb pig. Yeah, you should be in a tree stand or safe spot, and ready to do some tracking. If you ask me it's like a scaled down dangerous game hunt, and that would prabably make it more exciting. If theres anything wrong with that, then maybe theres something wrong with a cape buff hunt. Now someones going to critisize my simple math, and associations, and maybe there right, but like I said in the begining,.......It's only a thought!

mjbgalt · « **Reply #3 on:** March 08, 2006, 02:45:04 PM »

it is more the power behind such bullets than it is the weight of the bullet.

-Matt

Gregory · « **Reply #4 on:** March 08, 2006, 03:02:09 PM »

Here's interesting reading on the Taylor Index

http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm

PaulS · « **Reply #5 on:** March 08, 2006, 05:44:39 PM »

I am wondering how the animals are selected for the table and the position in which they belong in the TKO tables.

I also don't like taking the raw momentum of a bullet and multiply it by the diameter of the bullet to use as an index for deciding what game animal it should go up against. Raw momentum = BWxV in pound/feet seconds.

What that means is that a 100 grain bullet in 50 caliber has twice the killing power of a 100 grain bullet in 25 caliber when they are going the same speed. The weights are the same, the momentum is the same and at SOME speeds the larger bullet will be handicapped because of its larger area while at higher velocities the larger bullet will have an advantage (when it can penetrate as far as the 25 cal bullet) because of the larger wound channel.
The one saving grace of the TKO is that real bullets are used and the larger bullets are generally going fast enough to penetrate through the animal in question.
The ratio from one load to the next (in the chart on the site quoted) seemed a bit unrealistic to me but I ran the formula that I use to determine the weight of animal that a load is appropriate for and found this: (this is using the velocity and weight in the chart cited)

TKO:
50 BMG is 2.27 times more powerful than the 470NE
470NE is 1.24 times more powerful than the 416R
416R is 1.32 times more powerful than the 450 Mar
450 Mar is 1.99 times more powerful than the 3006
the 3006 is 1.15 times more powerful than the 308

And in my formula (Hunting index)
50 BMG is 3.19 times more powerful than the 470NE
470NE is 1.04 times more powerful than the 416R
416R is 2.72 times more powerful than the 450 Mar
450 Marlin is 1.24 times more powerful than the 3006
the 3006 is 1.26 times more powerful than the 308

The difference between the 308 and 3006 is due mostly to the 150 grain 308 vs 180 grain 3006 - I would like to see the comparison between 3006 and 308 using a 150 gr bullet - I am betting they would be much closer.

The TKO shows that the 450 Marlin is twice as powerful as the 3006 and in my formula it is only 24% stronger - this seems a closer approximation of the difference in hunting potential of these two guns to me. I am wondering if you all think it is closer to twice the killing power of a 3006 with a 180 grain bullet.
makes me wanna go Hmmmmmmm

PaulS · « **Reply #6 on:** March 08, 2006, 06:04:55 PM »

To kind of bring this back on topic the 223 with a 65 grain bullet travelling at the very high speed of 3000 FPS at the muzzle we have a TKO of 6.21 good for antelope, sheep and mule deer (remember this is based on a hit with the barrel touching the animal)
compared to the hunting index that puts its potential at a 170 pound animal (with the barrel touching the muzzle). Mule deer are a bit bigger than that in Western Washington and skittish enough that you might get a shot at one from 70 yards if you are good.
In short I would recommend nothing larger than a whitetail with the 223 and in Washington it is not legal to use the 223 for hunting anyway.
Against a 200 pound pig - no way! I owe it to the animal to be more humane than that. You will wound it and it will disappear, dying slowly of infection and starvation.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #7 on:** March 08, 2006, 09:19:41 PM »

Someday some bozo is going to try and kill a pig with a pellet gun!

victorcharlie · « **Reply #8 on:** March 09, 2006, 02:07:37 AM »

Down in Fl they don't use a gun at all, they kill them with a knife.......

Questor · « **Reply #9 on:** March 09, 2006, 03:02:10 AM »

I'm trying to figure out why it's OK to shoot a deer up to 200 pounds an not a pig up to 200 pounds with a 223. Realistically this 200 pounds is an upper maxiumum and weights are actually going to range typically from 100 pounds to 150 pounds.

Yes there are some anatomical differences between little pigs like this and deer, but I don't see why a bullet that will penetrate adequately on a deer won't penetrate adequately on a pig of the same size. These little pigs don't have the heavy gristle shield of the bigger hogs, so what's the problem?

Questor · « **Reply #10 on:** March 09, 2006, 03:05:35 AM »

By the way, I side with Taylor himself on the application of the TKO index: He was pretty realistic an humble about it and I don't think he'd approve of the widespread generalizations that are made from it today. He never claimed it was applicable to more than a handful of African big game species that he personally had experience with.

tstevens41 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 09, 2006, 06:54:12 AM »

I have used the 22-250 to shoot pigs out of Palo Duro Canyon. Ran a little way and dropped dead. I also keep a .270 ready. It would probably work with a .223, but it might not be an instant death. They might run for awhile. Are you going to follow to make sure that they go down? Be sure and use the heavest bullets that you can find.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #12 on:** March 09, 2006, 07:21:55 AM »

Well, not only that. Are you willing to pass up a shot that is too long even if the pig is a wall trophy? Killing a pig at 40 or 50 yards with a .223 slug in the ear is one thing, trying that same shot at 100-200 yards is another matter altogether. Now, I'm not saying there isen't ANYBODY who can make an ear shot at 200 yards but let's face it, they are FEW and FAR between.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** March 09, 2006, 07:44:28 AM »

This fella puts his minimum for hogs at the .243 with the exception noted...and then only with the .22-250 and .220 Swift...

http://www.texasboars.com/hunting/huntingtips.html#RIFLES

Hornady Core Lock?

:roll:

Knowing hog anatomy can go a long way towards a clean kill...

http://www.texasboars.com/anatomy.html

Tim

mjbgalt · « **Reply #14 on:** March 09, 2006, 08:10:41 AM »

thanks a lot quick, I WAS hungry for lunch but those pics...whew...

-Matt

tstevens41 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 09, 2006, 09:28:01 AM »

I may regret saying this, but here goes. The other day I shot a P. Dog that I know I wounded and he crawled to his hole and disappeared. I didn't get a shovel and dig for 20 or 30 feet to find him to make sure he was dead. The hogs that we have around here are like those P. Dogs, they are a pest that are spreading like fire. They dig up fields, ruin stock tanks, and breed like rabbits. I will try my best to make a good kill on one. I will hunt as hard as i can to find a wounded one. But if I hit one and I can't find find him before dark, I don't loose a lot of sleep over it. I think what I am saying is if you want to try and shoot a hog with a .223, go ahead. If he drops dead, then you did ok. If he doesn't, then try and find him, to the best of your ability. Then it is your decision to try and shoot another one or use a bigger gun.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #16 on:** March 09, 2006, 11:01:12 AM »

I'm not gonna say yeah or nay on this BUT if we're talking about an AR15 or other semiautomatic firearm there is really no reason to just shoot a pig ONCE. Me I'ed shoot untill the porker could either get away from me or he quit kicking wichever came first . :twisted:

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** March 09, 2006, 11:19:19 AM »

Quote from: mjbgalt

thanks a lot quick, I WAS hungry for lunch but those pics...whew...

-Matt

Sorry Matt, but BBQ comes to mind when I look at it!!! :-D :-D :-D

Tim

mjbgalt · « **Reply #18 on:** March 09, 2006, 12:31:00 PM »

guess i shouldn't ask about mountain oysters...you might have a website for that too.

-Matt

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** March 09, 2006, 12:35:54 PM »

Heh heh, there's a bunch of web sites on Rocky Mountain Oysters, aka:
Prairie Oysters, Mountain Tendergroins and a few other names that I can't mention!! :oops:

Tim

Questor · « **Reply #20 on:** March 09, 2006, 03:47:01 PM »

Quickdtoo:

You guys having a ball with that topic?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** March 09, 2006, 03:59:48 PM »

Sorry, just a little, I reckon. :grin:

Tim

mjbgalt · « **Reply #22 on:** March 09, 2006, 04:16:45 PM »

sometimes you feel like a ....well....ya know....and sometimes ya don't

-Matt

Steve P · « **Reply #23 on:** March 11, 2006, 10:53:16 PM »

Quote from: Questor

I'm trying to figure out why it's OK to shoot a deer up to 200 pounds an not a pig up to 200 pounds with a 223.

Will a .223 go thru a ton of feathers easier than a ton of elephant? Well ok, 200 pounds of feathers or 200 pounds of elephant? How about 200 pounds of 2x4s or 200 pounds of aluminum?

I have shot a .223 in silhouette competition. Winchester 55gr soft point bullets will crater the T1 chickens at 50 meters. Nosler 55gr ballistic tips just leave a gray mark.

200 meter rams weight @ 55 pounds. The Nosler 55gr ballistic tips leave a gray mark and sometimes the ram just rings and stand there. The Winchester 55gr soft points leave a little darker gray mark but the rams almost always go down.

There is a big difference in the composition of these two same size/weight bullets.

The Noslers basically explode on steel due to it's construction. The speed/momentum cause the bullet to come apart on impact. As the bullet comes apart, the weight of the steel forces the smaller particles of bullet to bounce off. Momentum/force disipates away from the steel quickly.

The Winchester bullet does not explode. It's construction keeps the momentum centered at the impact point. This is why the chicken craters and the ram has a more sustained momentum/force that knock it over more reliably.

Footballs are made of pigskin. Buckskin (mountain man) shirts feel a whole lot softer and thinner. Deer are thin muscled and wiry, pigs are short and stout.

Imagine that Nosler coming apart at impact. How different would it be skin and bone of deer vs skin and bone of pig. Ok, go to the Winchester. Is it just going to punch thru like the cratered chicken? or come apart like on the ram?

Lots of story to sum up the .223. Most commercial bullets are made for varmint shooting. They come apart on impact. When you get to the tougher stronger military type bullets, they are made to punch holes. They are not made to mushroom like a hunting bullet and shock the animal.

Does a .223 have the capability of killing a 200lb pig? If it will knock over a 55lb steel ram at 200 meters, it will kill a 200lb pig. Will it do it every time? Or like the ringing ram, will the pig stay standing and run away? .223 won't make a very big hole if you punch hole. Small holes = small blood trail.

If I was in my truck and a pig was tearing up my property, if I only had the .223 with me, yes I would shoot it.

If I were planning on taking a trip to hunt pig to eat, and I only had a .223, I would find a friend with a .308, .30-06 or something similar to borrow for my trip.

Steve

jerkface11 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 13, 2006, 05:18:15 AM »

Hogzilla was killed with a .223 I'm pretty sure he was bigger than 200 pounds.

trotterlg · « **Reply #25 on:** March 13, 2006, 04:18:28 PM »

In northern CA where I have experience pig hunting, the pigs have skin (if you can call it that) an inch and half thick on the front half from running through the brush. Pigs are also kind of agressive, and if you ever wounded one, they will most likely try to eat you. I have seen a 500 pounder shurg off a couple of British 303's and knock down a horse. Corse, that was 30 years ago, so maybe the pigs have gotten softer than in the olden days. They are definately not like shooting Bambi. Larry

warf73 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 14, 2006, 10:25:41 PM »

Here is a pic of what you could be up against.

Quote

I took this pic tonight of a cross section of a boars shield. I put a .222 bullet in front, to compare the thickness of the shield.
I've often been asked about a boars defences, especially when choosing a suitable caliber for boars, and I thought this pic would show any new comers to the game, just what they are up against.

If you are wondering how hard the shield is...you could hammer a nail into a piece of wood with it.

I don't know if that 22 cal bullet will get the job done or not.

Warf