Author Topic: The doctrine of nullification the basis of "States Righ  (Read 1328 times)

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Offline JBMauser

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The doctrine of nullification the basis of "States Righ
« on: March 08, 2006, 05:39:08 PM »
Since some here seem to use the argument of states rights for everyting from world socialsim to the weather.   I felt a reflection was in order.  I am pulling this from William Davis.  

"In the summer of 1828  John Calhoun of South Carolina wanted to be the next president.  He needed a program.  He scheduled himself at Fort Hill his plantation in Pendelton District and poured over American State papers in search of a defense against trhe tarriff which was imposed by the North who had majority in the House.  He paid particular attention to the 1781 Articles of Confederation which recognizaed the "soverignty, freedom and independence " of each state, and to the kentucky and Virginia Resolutions of 1798 and 1799 which stated the contraversial opnion that the constitution was a "compact" between the states, each of which had a right to pass on the constitutionaliy of the federal goverments's acts.  Calhoun published his doctirne of nullification in a pamphlet and He PROCLAIMED the right of any State the right to nullify any federal law or tarriff.  

So we have early SPIN based on a OPINION that is now being cited as fact that we are the source of world socialism.  

the States rights argument was a pulled out of opinion and used to put a political stake in the ground to oppose a powerful Northern Control of the House of Reps.  History is what it is.   The compact issue was not universal nor was it accepted.   I do not deny it was there but I do recognize it as early SPIN to get what you want or deny what you don't want.  The North may have been SOB's in robbing the
South of their cotton cash but that does not mean Calhoun's Issue was fact or even Valid.  but it was his weapon at the time.  It was not an absolute! It was a mans program to get elected president and kill off an imposed tarriff.  FWIW  JB

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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The doctrine of nullification the basis of
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2006, 07:41:57 PM »
You're really quibbling over a technicality here.

 I really don't agree with the term "states' rights" either, since a "right" under law, is simply a legal argument in appeal to a superior authority; meanwhile, sovereignty pertains to the recognition of NO superior whatsoever.

Hence, while you might be attempting to diminish state sovereignty, the reality is that there can be no diminuation of that which is absolute.

Hence, the term "states' rights" is commonly applied solely to the denial of sovereignty, as a sort of compromise; however there can in reality be no compromise of that which must either exist in the absolute sense-- i.e. recognizing NO superior-- or suffer gradual destruction by the conniving forces of political entropy.

Offline JBMauser

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The doctrine of nullification the basis of
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2006, 05:42:41 PM »
Yes, but did not the States join together and adopt ratify the constitution?  Did they not use their sovereign power to do so and so in making  this new entity diminish themselves some slight bit in the process.  And since any and all small transfers from themselves such as currency whether they approved it or it was forced on them that they accepted.  Did this not become a de facto surrender of thier sovereignty?  I do not deny that the States were at one time as individual countries but as the saying goes they died a death of 1000 cuts.  Once power is ceded it can't be undone or reclaimed, Unless of course there is a Civil War and they prevail.  The States are diminished in direct proportion to the rise in power of the Federal (central gov for some of you) Government.  And you will not find this transfer of power delineated on any piece of paper but it exists because it was not challenged.  But is exists none the less.  See you know this and you wish it were not so.  You wish the States could be what they were but they cannot and they can never be it again because it was theirs to give up you see and they did.  It is like transferring title to a piece of land at one time it had all the rights with it and over time rights were sold off or withheld.  Mineral rights, air rights, water rights, use restrictions et al.  you can find the original deed with all the power and you can see the current deeds with their limited rights but since it was a process of subtraction, you will not find the transfer of the right just the lack of it in subsequent deeds.  Now you see it Now you don’t.  States today have traded literally everything for a place at the Federal Table.  I do not make any judgment on the choice.  I just recognize it.  JB

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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The doctrine of nullification the basis of
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2006, 06:21:45 AM »
Quote from: JBMauser
Yes, but did not the States join together and adopt ratify the constitution?  Did they not use their sovereign power to do so and so in making  this new entity diminish themselves some slight bit in the process.  


NO!!!!! Not ONE IOTA, JOT or TITTLE.

This is what I meant when I said that ANY compromise of sovereignty, could be construed to deny ALL of it-- as Hitler did when he finagled an "emergency powers" doctrine over Germany, giving him full power only in an emergency; then, he promptly DECLARED an emergency and took over-- and anyone who disagreed, was promptly silenced by USING that power.

This sovereignty is stated quite clearly in Federalist 39, i.e. "Each State, in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act."

Can't get much clearer than that-- in addition to the fact that in the Constitutioal Convention, Madison PRECLUDED any use for force against a non-complying state-- and this omission was passed, and thus legally binding.

Furthermore, the 9th Amendment clearly states that "The enumeration in this Constitution of certain rights [by the people], shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." (Emphasis added).

Here the phrase "The people," as used likewise throughout the Constitution, refers to the people of the states individually and not respectively-- as once again stated in Federalist 39:

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On examining the first relation, it appears, on one hand, that the Constitution is to be founded on the assent and ratification of the people of America, given by deputies elected for the special purpose; but, on the other, that this assent and ratification is to be given by the people, not as individuals composing one entire nation, but as composing the distinct and independent States to which they respectively belong. It is to be the assent and ratification of the several States, derived from the supreme authority in each State, the authority of the people themselves. The act, therefore, establishing the Constitution, will not be a national, but a federal act.


Likewise, the phrase "deny or disparage" basically reserves all rights to the states, that they had prior to signing the Constitution.

This is particularly clear when taken in context with the 10th Amendment, which states that "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people [of the respective states]."
 
Here it's clear that all federal powers are merely delegated to it by the states-- not ceded-- and hence the "prohibitions" are, as Madison outlines in Federalist 39, STRICTLY VOLUNTARY.

It's like when a person joins a union; he agrees to abide by certain rules, but this doesn't deny or diminish him as a person; so the people of the states never agreed to lessen their sovereignty as a state.
Rather, they simply joined the union likewise for various benefits, agreeing to abide by the rules and restrictions, pay various membership fees etc-- but never giving up their sovereign right to depart at will.
Powers are merely DELEGATED.

The Webster-Story-Lincoln federal vision, meanwhile, more resembles a federal mafia, whereby every member-state is sworn to absolute obedience under the rulership of the rulers and kingpin, and none can ever leave (except with permission, which is naturally never given); likewise, joining the union results in ultimate exploitation-- i.e. "you got a problem, you go to the fed; but then you gotta come up with the fed's share of the money-- no matter what. Screw you, pay me.

"What's more, it also allows them to run up debt on the state's credit; like Ben Franklin said, the king's cheese is 9/10 wasted: but no matter, 'tis made from the people's milk. What's the difference, it's all profit! We've got ten trillion dollars in deficits!
And if anybody complains, we'll have our boys in the presses organize a war! It's beautiful!
And if anybody else complains, they'd be hit so hard that they'd never complain again.
Then when you can't squeeze another nickel out of the state: you light a match, and use it for nuclear testing-- or waste-storage."
We bought of everyone: politicians, lawyers, judges, EVERYBODY had their hand out!

And now.... it's all over--- all over the WORLD! We've got military forces watching every step that everyone takes-- and now with the "war on terror" it'll NEVER end!"

This is no different from any socialist empire: Cuba, the Soviet Union, Germany, China etc.
However Lincoln not only made all those POSSIBLE-- he made them look like child's play.

Which is great-- as long as you enjoy being a slave of the corporate-run state.
I was reading an interesting article about this here: it pretty much bears out what I've been saying, at the micro-economic (i.e. individual) level.

However, people are conditioned to believe that they're free-- oblivious to the vast bureacracy which controls and exploits them; it's kinda like being in the Matrix.

Offline JBMauser

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The doctrine of nullification the basis of
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2006, 06:26:35 PM »
Well, as it has been very clear that for many years those who were entrusted with the power of the State (s) have lacked the testicular fortitude to exercise the reasonability of the entrusted office they may have ceded power to the Federal Government through a defacto relinquishing it by simply not exercising their responsibility.   I do not dispute what you have posted as fact regarding the Sovereignty of the States.  My point is that they  never exercised it and thus lost it incrementally over time.  The term use it or loose it comes to mind.  I contend that as each major issue came to pass was Federalized and those State representatives voted it into existence as a Federal issue and not on their own they turned their back on their responsibility and gave us what we have today and also emasculated the States in the process.  JB

Offline JBMauser

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The doctrine of nullification the basis of
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2006, 06:39:50 PM »
"Which is great-- as long as you enjoy being a slave of the corporate-run state.
I was reading an interesting article about this here: it pretty much bears out what I've been saying, at the micro-economic (i.e. individual) level. "

By the way, the article you refered to is trash. If you read the book it is clear that it is about peoples tendency to deny changes around them because it challenges their convention.  "do not confuse me with the facts"  it has more to do people making decision based on the past as from the current situationl.  It is about people who have found a comfort level and a belief and argue with anyone who questions their convention.  
Does this sound familiar to you....  

If anyone should read this book and consider it,  but I will not be so bold.  After all you have made your mind up on all matters it seems.  

I will have to find my copy and reread it again.  It is not earth shaking but it is evocative.  That alone is rare now a days.  JB

Offline JBMauser

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The doctrine of nullification the basis of
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2006, 07:00:41 PM »
"However, people are conditioned to believe that they're free-- oblivious to the vast bureacracy which controls and exploits them; it's kinda like being in the Matrix"  

This is interesting.  We americans are seen by most of the world as haughty, arogant and obnoxious because we think we are Free and we take our Freedom with us wherever we go.  As apposed to those who live in other lands who know they are not free.

Yes we are dillusional, but we seem to be more free than most.  And if you consider it we are.  Yes we have to put up with a huge bureacracy and a lot of BS but bottom line, we can move about, own property (lets not go there now) buy an airplane and fly it, buy a boat and leave the country, buy a car and leave the county.  Buy a pair of boots and walk out of the country only don't go North unless you have something like $250k (I think)  they only want you if you bring $$$$.  We can choose to change employment, residence, party, religion and some can even change their sex (we will not go there as well)  Yes we have to register for the draft, Get a drivers liscense from the state we reside in or one of those State ID things if we do not drive.  A social security number which is not supposed to be used (by law) for iD but it is!   But the fact is that you can agree to meet these few small requirements or you can opt to LEAVE!  No one will stop you!  Sell all your STUFF, Go and buy a sailboat 30' or better learn how to sail it, pack your stuff, your cat and go.  No one will stop you!  HINT  That is Freedom.....
You are not a slave if you can pick up and leave.  If you  DO NOT WANT TO LEAVE THAT DOES NOT MAKE YOU A SLAVE.  If you choose to stay and carp about it that is another matter.  JB

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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The doctrine of nullification the basis of
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2006, 03:07:15 AM »
Quote from: JBMauser
"However, people are conditioned to believe that they're free-- oblivious to the vast bureacracy which controls and exploits them; it's kinda like being in the Matrix"  

This is interesting.  We americans are seen by most of the world as haughty, arogant and obnoxious because we think we are Free and we take our Freedom with us wherever we go.  As apposed to those who live in other lands who know they are not free.


No, this a self-serving attitude by Americans that others are simply "jealous of American superiority;" in reality other nations rightfully resent their sovereignty being imposed against by Yankee imperialism, and the American attitude of supremacy and superiority built on military aggression, dictatorship and control under the pure hyocrisy of "saving the world" and "making it safe for democracy."

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Yes we are dillusional, but we seem to be more free than most.  


That's a self-fulfilling prophecy, particularly since the socialist revolutions of the 20th century were CAUSED by Yankee imperialism and socialism, as I've mentioned previously-- just like emancipation by the Civil War simply worsened the condition of the "emancipated," when the other 95% fared much better without a DROP of blood being shed in acquiring their freedom.

That's like cutting someone's legs off, and then saying they hate you because simply jealous because  you have legs and they don't-- when the reality is that they have a deep, deep hatred for you because of how you violated their sovereignty and destroyed their physical integrity-- but you feel like they're just one-down because you gave them a wheelchair.
I'd tell you to wake up and smell what you're shovelling, but you obviously think your manure doesn't stink.

Also if the US has more freedom and wealth than others, it's mainly because we had it to BEGIN with, and some of that still remains.
But it's mostly gone the way of the British Empire-- only worse.

Every shred of evidence you list is likewise self-fulfilling, just like the Civil War CAUSED the devastation of the southern economy which persists to this day-- but for which Yankees likewise claim to be proof of Yankee superiority, and validation of the Civil War.

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And if you consider it we are.  Yes we have to put up with a huge bureacracy and a lot of BS but bottom line, we can move about, own property (lets not go there now) buy an airplane and fly it, buy a boat and leave the country, buy a car and leave the county.  


Oh, the rich in ANY nation can do this. And I don't see the average American buying airplanes or yachts-- just the rich, who universally GET that way by government control, and use the money off the backs of the rest to ENSLAVE them.

You live under the ILLUSION that anyone can become rich if they just work hard, play by the rules, and pays their taxes; that's the programmed belief under the "liberty and justice for all" portion of that little mantra you've been programmed with in your VIRTUE-al reality matrix. You might say, you're a NEO-conservative-- but actually that's PSEUDO-conservative.

Yes, those who play along are rewarded, with a bit of their freedom--a the expense of someone else's; however for the mainstream, it IS like in the Matrix: people are slaves to  corporate-statism, and can't understand why; they know something is wrong, but think if they just "work harder" and "produce more" then it will fix things.
But that's only for those who get ahead on OPM-- other people's money; for those who earn their own, the benefit NEVER exceeds the cost-- for the simple reason that they're NOT as free as they're TOLD, and their freedom to interact with others is being dictated by arbitrary bureaucatic regulations and taxation of their work-product-- i.e. they are slaves to the corporate-run state.
So as I wrote in my article "Defining America,"  the US is now a centralized empire whose democracy only exists to "tax or be taxed, regulate or be regulated."
But in reality, the power-elite are already pulling the strings.

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]Buy a pair of boots and walk out of the country only don't go North unless you have something like $250k (I think)  they only want you if you bring $$$$.


Because as I've stated, they're under socialism.

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We can choose to change employment, residence, party, religion and some can even change their sex (we will not go there as well)

Oh, ALL can change these things-- if they're RICH.
As or changing these things, yes even a slave has SOME freedom.

 
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Yes we have to register for the draft,

Which makes you a slave right there-- unless there's a part of the term "inalienable right to life and liberty" than you don't understand;

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Get a drivers liscense from the state we reside in


Which makes liberty into a privilege... subject to taxation, revocation and harassment.

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or one of those State ID things if we do not drive.
 A social security number which is not supposed to be used (by law) for iD but it is!


I.e.  the government brand on the slave's back.

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  But the fact is that you can agree to meet these few small requirements or you can opt to LEAVE!


Love it or leave it, huh?
That's rather arrogant, since I'm simply citing the ACTUAL INTENT of the written law-- and the destruction of inalienable rights under the current perversions. YOU'RE the one who can't see past your virtual-reality pod.

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No one will stop you!  Sell all your STUFF, Go and buy a sailboat 30' or better learn how to sail it, pack your stuff, your cat and go.  No one will stop you!  HINT  That is Freedom.....[/quote

NO. That is NOT freedom; that's SLAVERY.
FREEDOM is when a state does not destroy individual liberty.
You list things that a person "can" do-- by which you mean they MAY do-- i.e. are graciously ALLOWED by the state, regardless of whether those restrictions actually secure rights-- or destroy them.

And you left out the main part: "if they have the MONEY--" As well as how money is ACQUIRED.

Here you ignore somethign else: ECONOMIC FREEDOM. You seem to think that economic exploitation does not exist-- and that it has no cost in real dollars in the person's bank-account.

It does-- in both the absolute sense, and the relative sense of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. On average, however, everyone's poorer since a slave-environment under corporate-statism harms productivity. However the ruling elite always have the best of everything, so they're happy with the system.

But for this, you fall under the indoctrinations you've been told about this as well: the neoconservatives call the poor "lazy" and how great they have it in America, and the ne-liberals call for socialism since the distribution of wealth is so one-sided.

Both are mere knee-jerk defense-mechanisms which are merely "Bread and Circuses" in keeping the people distracted from their true state of bondage by representing an illusion of control.

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You are not a slave if you can pick up and leave.


That's an ignorant statement which recognizes only CHATTEL slavery, and ignores ECONOMIC and POLITICAL slavery, via the destruction of economic  and political freedom. If a person is told they are a citizen of a free country, but in reality are neither-- they by definition they are a slave.

Throuhout history, slaves could generally buy their freedom;  but they simply had nowhere to go because of title, property and other things which were controlled by the slave-state, and from which the person was prevented from engagement.

So under your definition, "freedom" simply becomes a word for having nothing left to lose.
However under the law we DO have rights and title which we are  being denied-- simply being able to run away and give that up, doesn't make you "free." That's just simplistic idiocy.

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If you  DO NOT WANT TO LEAVE THAT DOES NOT MAKE YOU A SLAVE.

No-- destruction of inalienable rights by the state, you a slave.
You're singing a familiar song-- clearly you're parroting your indoctrinations against all logic.

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If you choose to stay and carp about it that is another matter. JB


No, if you DON'T protest your enslavement then you DESERVE to be one.
And in the words of Abraham Maslow, "there is no such thing as a well-adjusted slave.

Now either put down the blue pill and free your mind-- or take it and go back to work for the corporation... just be sure to show up on time.

Otherwise if you still want to claim you're "free," I suggest you take it up with the libertarians-- they're the experts on how you're not.
I'm just the expert on defining freedom under the LAW as it's written.

Offline JBMauser

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The doctrine of nullification the basis of
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2006, 05:28:19 PM »
ah!  we finally have it.

'I'm just the expert on defining freedom under the LAW as it's written"

Law is a limitation to freedom, I am speaking in the absolute, with morality removed.  You can not define freedom by it's limitation.   You can only deliniate it's reduction if you can list the laws.  

I hope you live long and prosper Brian.  I no longer find a need to respond to you as I know that we operate on different levels of reality.  It is like the reverse of string theory where someting can effect someting else that is similar but not in the same area.  Here facts and history seem not to exist for you.  

Best of luck.  JB

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2006, 07:21:31 PM »
Quote from: JBMauser
ah!  we finally have it.

'I'm just the expert on defining freedom under the LAW as it's written"

Law is a limitation to freedom, I am speaking in the absolute, with morality removed.  You can not define freedom by it's limitation.   You can only deliniate it's reduction if you can list the laws.  



For the record, one can't claim to uphold the law, and then argue against it the next moment.  This has always been JB's Mode of Operation,  i.e. shifting scope between written and Natural laws-- as whichever best serves his purpose.

Living long, isn't so important as living well-- and living well, requires thinking originally, not scoring brownie-points in fantasy-land by chanting some cult-mantra of self-serving falsehoods.

And those who try to live long without living well, will typically miss out on both-- while deserving neither.

Offline victorcharlie

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The doctrine of nullification the basis of
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2006, 06:02:09 AM »
Brian.....I just read your papers "Defining America", and "Were the States Sovereign Nations".  I found it to be most excellent work.  

I also see you have a degree from Liberty University and a law student?  If so, then you are well on the path to becoming an “expert” on constitutional law.  (Ex…..former or has been, spurt, a drip under pressure).

Your views on corporate America enslaving the people who work for it are, in fact, true as well.  I know because I was a corporate slave for 30 years or more.  I was never able to work hard enough, long enough, or good enough but was always pushed for more and more, told to set "goals" and then measured against my goals.   How is it possible for me to set goals when working for a corporation who dictated its goals me?  Being successful in corporate America required me to work long 70 to 80 hour weeks as well as most every holiday and weekend.  It required being on call and getting paged several times a week at 2 am as well as working up to and over 110 days straight.   I seldom had time to spend with my wife, children, grandchildren and friends.  I had no social life out side of work and little time to hunt or fish which I love so dearly.  I made good money and was well compensated which lead me to believe I wasn’t a slave.   My enslavement wasn’t always so severe but occurred over time as the bean counters and efficiency experts armed themselves with computes and like technology and demanded more and more from the workers while giving back less and less.  Those working conditions have convinced me that I was merely a slave but of my own device.  Why does a woman stay with a man that beats her?  Why was I staying with a company that had little respect for me or my quality of life, and who's demands were becoming impossible to meet?   I was doing this for the comfort that comes with a handful of dollars!   I finally had enough, and left.  Emotionally this has been like a divorce in that while I reclaimed my life it just never felt right.   Part of my problem was my own fear of trying to maintain a life style that some would call success while having little income.  I.e.....economic freedom.

Part of my corporate career was spent living and working in the oil fields and data centers of the People's Republic of China.  In my opinion, the interesting thing about acquired wealth and power is that here, in the United States, a person must acquire wealth and then power or be born of wealth and power, giving social status but wealth almost always comes before power.  It seems to be different in China, as a person acquires power and then wealth comes with it.  Most of the college educated young people in China that I worked with wanted to join the communist party as this gave them a certain amount of privilege and placed them in position to achieve at a higher level than the ordinary citizen.  Very few, were allowed in, and only about 20% or the Chinese population is actually in the party.  Certainly Lee Ping travels around Beijing in a black Mercedes Benz and not the ox cart, farm tractor and trailer, or bicycle the average guy on the street uses for transportation.  I suspect Lee Ping also eats much better than the average chinaman as well.  The Chinese are slaves as well.  Marx said “Workers of the world arise, cast off your chains.  From each according to his ability to produce to each according to his needs”, but Marxist theory didn’t seem to consider the evil nature of man, and the greed instilled in most men that would drive them to corruption.  This evil nature of man seems to be the one thing the designers of the US constitution were trying to guard against.


I'm sure there were wealthy people who immigrated to America, but most (about 80% of immigrants between 1607 and 1720 or so), my 7th great grandfather included, came over as indentured servants.   Indentured for between 4 to 7 years, they were little more than slaves.  My 7th great grandfather couldn’t write, but made his mark to enter into the contract necessary to secure his arrival in the new world.  The year was 1682.  Sometime before 1700 he had learned to read and write and served in several public offices.  Clearly he had no money, but he did make strides and after 3 generations his offspring and the children of his offspring had mad substantial gains in status.  His name appears in some of the same places with those of Jefferson, Madison, and Wythe.   Clearly, these men sought to create a government that would reduce and hopefully eliminate the possibility of the tyranny they fled.  Jefferson and Madison were well aware of the problems of government and envisioned a small federal, not national government made up of farmers, not of merchants.  Their dream was to take responsibility for their own lives and to have as little government intervention into it as necessary to run an ordered society.

I was also indoctrinated into accepting this corporate mentality as normal from my early years of life.  This was done by groups such as the Boy Scouts of America, Little league Baseball and others.  While the doctrines taught by these fine organizations are still held in high regard by my self, I clearly see that like everything else, there is an agenda.  Some of what was taught was spiritual in nature, but the strong nationalist views have shaped many young men into thinking that Federalism and the power of the central government is not only expected but also is to be admired.  Still, I wouldn’t trade my child hood experiences with those organizations for anything and do believe they do far more good in shaping the character of a man regardless of agenda.  It becomes more apparent to me that every organization has an agenda.  Some of these agendas I agree with, some I can tolerate, and others offend me.  Every body wants something and nothing comes without a price.

The real question man has to ask himself is what price to pay for liberty.  Patrick Henry said give me liberty or give me death.  He was willing to fight and die to farther the cause of liberty.  Liberty is taken for granted by most, and I doubt most of the men and women who live today are willing to pay such a high price.  Those who paid the highest of price should be honored by all of us as well as the men and women who are willing to make that sacrifice today, even if this is for corporate imperialism and calling it the quest for liberty.  I wish I knew the answer to when it becomes necessary to fight and die, but our county for the most part has always been imperialist and the exploitation of other people is driven by the desire for more wealth and status.  This really isn’t any different than other forms of government and true to Marxist theory all governments evolve in a cycle from capitalism to socialism to communism.  I also find it interesting all the different categories and the buzz words they create that people use to differ themselves from one of the above categories.  Terms such as Communitism, compassionate conservative etc.  The internet is full of sites that explain why their brand of government is different from the other.

Enter the evil nature of man.  You have so eloquently defined the problem.  In the corporate world it is expected that if you point out a problem, you also have a solution or be labeled a complainer.  You have so far declined to present your opinion on what to do to fix this mess.  Your comments on how this could be changed for the betterment of all man kind I’m sure would be interesting.  Your knowledge of constitutional law far exceeds mine.  I understand the problem, but not the solution.  After all, you don’t want to be a complainer do you?
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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The doctrine of nullification the basis of
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2006, 08:41:52 AM »
Quote from: victorcharlie
.  Every body wants something and nothing comes without a price.

The real question man has to ask himself is what price to pay for liberty.  Patrick Henry said give me liberty or give me death.  He was willing to fight and die to farther the cause of liberty.  Liberty is taken for granted by most, and I doubt most of the men and women who live today are willing to pay such a high price.  Those who paid the highest of price should be honored by all of us as well as the men and women who are willing to make that sacrifice today, even if this is for corporate imperialism and calling it the quest for liberty.  I wish I knew the answer to when it becomes necessary to fight and die, but our county for the most part has always been imperialist and the exploitation of other people is driven by the desire for more wealth and status.  This really isn’t any different than other forms of government and true to Marxist theory all governments evolve in a cycle from capitalism to socialism to communism.  I also find it interesting all the different categories and the buzz words they create that people use to differ themselves from one of the above categories.  Terms such as Communitism, compassionate conservative etc.  The internet is full of sites that explain why their brand of government is different from the other.


Here is the problem: people are brainwashed into thinking that they ARE free, but are unable to see the bureacratic maze of laws as being for their enslavement rather than their protection.

They believe that these laws are just, because they live in a "democracy," but don't even know what that means; ultimately they believe that it means mob-rule, but that this is acceptable because "the will of the majority is always right--" or at last that "that's the price of freedom, the lesser of two evils," and other sound-byte logic.

They don't realize that it means "government by consent of the governed," and that said governments are solely for the purposes of securing the inalienable rights of the people, with which they are equally endowed by their creator-- and that whenever government becomes destuctive to these rights, it's their right to alter or abolish it and elect new governemnt.

Likewise, they don't realize that "consent" means INFORMED consent, i.e. the right to give or refuse consent based on full knowledge of the FACTS regarding the law and history of original intent; as such, virtually NO ONE is consenting to the current establishement, under which they are NOT told that the states are sovereign nations under the legal requirements of the law and Constitution, each bound solely by its own voluntary act.

As such, their "consent" is merely "duped compliance," which is literally no different from compliance bought under threat of force-- in fact it's far WORSE, since at least a forced slave KNOWS he's both; meanwhile a duped slave lives under the mind-destroying delusion that he's neither.

In reality, the people are slaves to a corporate-statist empire, but are brainwashed in to saying that they have liberty and justice-- but still are forced to pledge allegiance to the USA as one indivisible nation.

And that's just the FIRST of many lies which maintain their enslavement.

In reality, they live under an absolutist state, which holds individual rights SECONDARY to the dictates of corporate-run special-interests.

Meanwhile, the majority of elections are determined almost entirely by special intersts, partisan-media and rational ignorance-- as well as brainwashed propaganda.

And no, this is not one BIT exaggerated; not ONE American war was a just war against domination. Likewise, private work-product is subject to state-attachment via taxations, and almost ALL private interactions are dictated by the state, being limited only to those who carry the proper state-license, education, or other state-permission-- or which conform to proper state-regulations. Private choice is re-defined from anything which doesn't infringe upon the rights of others, to only that which the state specifically allows-- for whatever reason.

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Enter the evil nature of man.


Well, here I will be politically correct-- literally-- and say "ethically challenged;" simply put, most people haven't been educated as to the raw facts or ethics of the situation, and so they're basically dwelling in barbarism in this regard; meanwhile various sociological myths pervade which claim to attribute freedom to our society, by blaming the discontent for their own situations.

Here then, likewise, is the factor of elitism as pertains to an oppression as self-validating form of Social Darwinism, by which their superior social status simply confirms their superior nature.

However this "new-age aristocratic" form of elitism takes this one step further, to take further credit for this elite status by claiming to have chosen it through their "hard work" and diligence, thus attributing their superior status,  to superior character-- rather than simply random facts of nature; this frees them even from any ethical duty of compassion for the less fortunate- or even the self-interest that they themselves could wind up in that situation, since again they take credit for not being in such via their "planning and hard work" while their "inferiors' were choosing to be lazy and self-indulgent.

In all, however, this simply turns results in factionalism, i.e. turning people against each other, since they're all being exploited and don't know the source; Democrats and Republicans pretend to blame each other, but in the end they go to dinner while the voters go to work.

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 You have so eloquently defined the problem.  In the corporate world it is expected that if you point out a problem, you also have a solution or be labeled a complainer.  You have so far declined to present your opinion on what to do to fix this mess.


I don't understand where you could get that idea: I thought I'd made quite clear that the states should be freed, as the Constitution requires: every state being a sovereign nation, bound only by its own voluntary agreement. In fact I've stated it at least 7 or 8 times.

However if I wasn't direct enough, I'll say it again: EVERY STATE IS A SOVEREIGN NATION. By doing this, the government will be decentralized from a corporate-statist controlled empire, into a voluntary association of separate nations, each with the supreme power of self-ownership-- and self-government. Federal laws are simply BY-laws-- BY which the states AGREE to govern themselves-- but only on a voluntary basis, NEVER by threat of force.

The Civil War did NOT change the law, and so the original meaning of the law must prevail; legally, the stats are still sovereign nations, and this law must, by its own definitions and requirements, be enforced as written.


There's not much to understand about Constitutional law: the states are sovereign, period.  Without that fundamental cornerstone, then the Constitution becomes whatever the federal government claims, since ultimately the individual states determined this by virtue of accepting it-- ala "the customer is always right."

Now compare this to a captive audience-- which is literally what the individual states are-- and you see how America has gone from a democracy to demogoguery. No longer could a single state control policy by nullifying abusive federal law

The Declaration of Independence claims that governments derive their just powers through consent of the governed, and that it's the right of the people to alter or abolish government which they believe destroys their rights; however this no longer becomes the case once sovereignty is destroyed.

However, Lincoln twisted the words of the Founders, who stated that "whenever governments become destructive to their rights, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it."

In contrast, Lincoln stated that "any people, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better."

Here then, in Lincoln's mind, it seems that rights are contingent solely upon might, rather than inalienable endowment from one's creator.
In this sense, governments do not derive "just powers" by consent of the governed; for its seems that there ARE no just or unjust powers-- just power per se.

And so, we may logically conclude that if those with the power, have the right to shake off government-- then they do not have the power, then they don't have any rights.

Hence with these words, Lincoln essentially declared a Constitutional coup de tat-- or coup de grace as would be more accurate--- that government derived its just powers not through consent of the governed, for the purpose of securing their inalienable rights, equally endowed them by their creator; rather, he declared that governments derived their just powers by any means necessary-- a purely Machiavellian precept.

As such, it is no surprise that Lincoln was such a ruthless and murdering dictator: for we see from his rhetoric that he was simply a Machiavellian pragmatist who saw not truth, but POWER as a defense of itself-- and an end which justified all means... particularly since history is written by the victors.

Hence, it's essential-- even OBLIGATORY -- that every person make an effort to look past Lincoln's hagiographers (i.e. spin-doctors ) to look at the facts of how Lincoln was certainly the most deranged tyrant in world history, and that the United States is by no means the "land of the free," but the home of the SLAVE.

But this isn't really necessary to arrive at the conclusion, that the states were declared as free, sovereign and independent nations--and that the Constitution retains such respective, independent sovereignty.

However Lincoln's corrupt philosphy, is entirely consistent with reasons for his interpretations of the Constitution to the contrary. Indeed, no serious legal argument could sustain them.