Author Topic: Swiss powder (Read 1964 times)

gazz · « **on:** March 23, 2006, 05:44:21 PM »

Hi,
Iv'e just been checking out some Swiss powder. It is labled No.2,3fg. It has a shiny appearance like Goex "cartridge grade". Now, is the stuff I'm looking at designed for muzzle loaders or is it a cartridge powder?
Thanks,
gazz.

lostid · « **Reply #1 on:** March 25, 2006, 06:38:15 PM »

swiss say's what it is. and tell's ya how to use it.
swiss is a hot, fast burning powder.
I use it. i believe because i use swiss, and know how to use it in/with my gun,,is/half the reason i shoot sum good.

Well gazz,,shoot some powders..tell us about your gun. then ask.

if you really want too know about swiss,,then tell about,,,,,,,,,

gazz · « **Reply #2 on:** March 26, 2006, 02:17:59 PM »

I really meant the Swiss black rifle powder, not the Sandoz product.
Cheers,
gazz.

spitpatch · « **Reply #3 on:** March 26, 2006, 02:33:38 PM »

Gazz, as I understand it from the guys here....(I don't shoot Swiss) it's a very high quality powder that is capable (maybe reccomended) of being used in cartridge and is used in loose form as well. If I've overstepped my knowledge maybe a Swiss shooter will post and educate us both. From what I read here, It's probably the best powder available.

dodd3 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 27, 2006, 10:44:59 PM »

gazz i have shot swiss fff in my 45/70 it shoots realy well with very good velosity with very little fowling .but it is very expencive here in oz so i shoot the cheaper brands .around here a kilo[2.2lbs] of swiss sells for $90 to $100,black powder is not cheep in west australia. saw some pyrodex last saterday in a gun shop for $60 lb thats even more than swiss .so i will stick with wano premium i get good performance in catridge and muzzel loader with it.
bernie :grin:

Birddog6 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 28, 2006, 01:49:01 AM »

Swiss black powder is a sporting grade powder that was developed for black powder cartridge shooting. It is probably the cleanest burning type of black powder you will ever shoot, and considerably cleaner than Goex, Elephant, or any others. By being a sporting grade powder, it is also considerably hotter than standard black powder & more chamber pressure per volume of charge, thus when use as a loose black powder charge in a BP muzzleloader, you should use a reduced charge by aprox 20% from what you would normally use. The sizing of the grain is the same as on other powders however because of the burn rate of the powder is so fast & hot, the recommended grain size usage is different. On Swiss most would use a 3F for rifles of .40 cal & smaller. The 2F would be used ina a 45 to 50 range. Then they have a 1.5F for the 54 to 62, then a 1F for the 62 an larger, etc.

Now keep in mind you will get lots of recommendations on thing, lots of I do's & I did's & etc. Lots of ways of doing stuff, but it doesn't mean they are all safe.. I do know if you shoot really hot charges of the Swiss in a ML for a considerable time you will gas cut the barrrel, thus is it important to use it correctly. I have shot it for years in my small bores & never had a problems with it.

I am not a powder expert, nor claim to be. So, I suggest if you are going to use it, call or emaill The Main Powder House and talk to JR there and he can give you the loading data on it & what it safe.. Always best to be safe than sorry..

:-)

lostid · « **Reply #6 on:** March 30, 2006, 04:24:09 PM »

Quote from: gazz

, not the Sandoz product..

gazz,,??
What is the,,"Sandoz product..?? I've never heared of that.?

gazz · « **Reply #7 on:** April 01, 2006, 01:37:39 PM »

Thanks guys,
birddog6, I will be using it in a .36 M.L. It was recommended that I use 27 grains with a patched r.b. That load has evidently been giving good results and sounds in accordance with what you are saying.
lostid,Sandoz is the other famous factory in Switzerland where they developed something called L.S.D. I believe that if you ingest it, you can have a meaningfull conversation with a can of black powder that will tell you how it should be used. The down side of it's use is that targets turn into rainbows and other wierd stuff. It's got very little to do with shooting... just my slightly twisted idea of a joke! L.O.L.
cheers,
gazz.

Slamfire · « **Reply #8 on:** April 01, 2006, 11:58:26 PM »

I find that the smaller calibers are too hot for edible small game hunting. They perform much like the .22 Magnum. Try and work your powder charge down to 10 or 15 grains of FFFg. If it is accurate in your gun, it'll make a much better small game rifle. Of course, if varmints is your game, the hotter the better. :wink:

sharps4590 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 02, 2006, 12:38:40 AM »

Slamfire has a good point. Even the miniscule 32 is quite destructive on small game. I've been shooting a 36 for squirrels and rabbits for a very long time and my load has been 20 grs. of GOEX for as long as I've been using it. If Swiss is being used I'd agree with the further reduction in powder charge. I believe you'll find head shots are still pretty much a necessity if you intend to eat the game. Some say a chest or shoulder shot is OK on squirrels as there isn't much meat on the front legs, but I happen to like the front legs.

Vic

Birddog6 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 02, 2006, 12:40:49 PM »

Quote from: Slamfire

I find that the smaller calibers are too hot for edible small game hunting. They perform much like the .22 Magnum. Try and work your powder charge down to 10 or 15 grains of FFFg. If it is accurate in your gun, it'll make a much better small game rifle. Of course, if varmints is your game, the hotter the better. :wink:

I always looked at it as "A head shot is a head shot" makes no dif what the caliber is. I don't eat rabbit or squirrel heads, so it is basically a hit or a miss on them. :grin:

gazz · « **Reply #11 on:** April 02, 2006, 08:14:44 PM »

I hope to be having my first shot out of the .36 in a couple of days. Thanks for the info. I'm strictly into paper and steel, but, if it shoots well with reduced loads, all the better ... more bangs for the buck as they say.
Those little balls sure look small. The last shooter I had was a .58.
Cheers,
gazz

Birddog6 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 03, 2006, 11:04:28 PM »

I actually prefer the .36 over the .32, merely because of the ball being a lil larger & easier to handle when my fingers are cold. I have a I.Haines rifle in a .36 & it is quite a accurate lil rifle. I have killed lots of squirrels with it in the past, however, don't seem to get much hunting time with it any more. I shoot a .350 patched round ball with .30 grains of 3F Goex behind it, .017 pillow ticking. Quite a fun little rifle & you can shoot it all day for little of nothing in expense.. When I shoot 3F Swiss in it I shoot 25 grains & it zips it pretty good & accurately, shooting cloverleaf groups at 25 yards is not a problem. The Swiss is really clean burning in it & you can shoot it all day & not swab with a good liquid lube. Hope ya enjoy your rifle. :grin:

dbm · « **Reply #13 on:** April 04, 2006, 06:46:07 AM »

Quote from: Birddog6

Swiss black powder is a sporting grade powder that was developed for black powder cartridge shooting.

I've never heard that Swiss was developed for BPCR before. Where did that information come from?

It is widely used in both muzzle and breech loading arms here in the UK and one fo the biggest retailers is the Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain.

Have a look at the following user guide for differnet grades of Swiss and muzzle loading arms: http://www.black-powder.co.uk/userguide.htm

David

lostid · « **Reply #14 on:** April 06, 2006, 09:04:10 PM »

Quote from: dbm

Quote from: Birddog6
Swiss black powder is a sporting grade powder that was developed for black powder cartridge shooting.

I've never heard that Swiss was developed for BPCR before. Where did that information come from?David

dbm? please read all of birddogs' post. and take in all it's context.

on this side of the pond we are allowed by our freedom to use all manner of powders, and many styles of bp firearms, even the common man. and many of us have used many powders through many years. i have seen your group before, we don't have the same limitations you do,,sorry..

over here swiss is considered a sporting grade powder,,it's hot,,fast,, and expensive. it's a top of the line powder.

Birddog6 · « **Reply #15 on:** April 07, 2006, 06:37:33 AM »

Quote

I've never heard that Swiss was developed for BPCR before. Where did that information come from?

It is widely used in both muzzle and breech loading arms here in the UK and one fo the biggest retailers is the Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain.

Have a look at the following user guide for differnet grades of Swiss and muzzle loading arms: http://www.black-powder.co.uk/userguide.htm

David

David.

Swiss 1F is the Coarse grain here in the USA & for large bore rifles.
Swiss 4F is the Fine grain here in the USA & for flintlock flash pans, cartridge rifles, etc.

I have never seen 5F, but I surmise it is even a Finergrained powder than 4F.

:grin:

dbm · « **Reply #16 on:** April 07, 2006, 07:02:56 AM »

Quote from: lostid

dbm? please read all of birddogs' post. and take in all it's context.

I did read it all, and the first sentence says "Swiss black powder is a sporting grade powder that was developed for black powder cartridge shooting."

I have never heard that it was developed for black powder cartridge shooting; all I am seeking is where this information came from - I'm just curious.

Quote from: lostid

on this side of the pond we are allowed by our freedom to use all manner of powders, and many styles of bp firearms, even the common man. and many of us have used many powders through many years. i have seen your group before, we don't have the same limitations you do,,sorry...

Ok, you're starting to loose me now..... :? I have the freedom to use all manner of powders and styles of BP firearm and have used many powders as you apparently do. I'm currently holding four different grades of Swiss powder, together with three other brands of powder (some Goex 2F, a medium grade shooting powder from a UK source and TPPH (the proof house powder)) for use in my muzzle and breech loading rifles. What limitations are you referring to?

Quote from: lostid

over here swiss is considered a sporting grade powder,,it's hot,,fast,, and expensive. it's a top of the line powder.

That's the same as over here then except TPPH is more expensive. :-)

David

dbm · « **Reply #17 on:** April 07, 2006, 07:07:07 AM »

Quote from: Birddog6

Swiss 1F is the Coarse grain here in the USA & for large bore rifles.......... etc

I am familiar with Swiss gradings thanks. As stated above I was just curious about the assertion that it was "developed for black powder cartridge shooting". I have never seen that before.

David

Birddog6 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 07, 2006, 01:15:45 PM »

It appears you are asking for documentation stating that on the Swiss, and I don't have it. To be honest I don't know who told me that. but I keep thinking it was JR at the Maine Powder House or Bill Knight, but it was years ago & I could be wrong. I do know just about anyone over here refers to Swiss as a Sporting Grade Powder.
I don't know Bill Knights's email address or I would ask him details of the Swiss powder. He probably knows more about powder developement & testing of dif. powders & comparisons, than anyone in the USA. If anyone knows his email address, please email him & ask him to give us the real scoop on here..........

:-)

dbm · « **Reply #19 on:** April 07, 2006, 07:37:18 PM »

Quote from: Birddog6

It appears you are asking for documentation stating that on the Swiss, and I don't have it.

I was only curious, and not seeking categoric proof of your comment. It was just something I had not seen before, that was all. I have Bill Knight's email address and read many of his writings.

I don't think Swiss is regarded any differently in the US than here in the UK, in terms of it being regarded a sporting grade powder. It certainly gives good results with my long range muzzle loaders in shooting out to 1000 yards and as I understand is similar t the 19th century powdrs used by the British long range shooters.

David

lostid · « **Reply #20 on:** April 09, 2006, 04:13:28 PM »

Quote from: dbm

Quote from: lostid
, even the common man.

Ok, you're starting to loose me now..... :? David

that I believe,,
,,many of the guy's here don't even know what an Enfield is, they don't even condsider 1000m shot's. They just want to shoot game for the fee of their local state game license,,or become proficiant in accuracy for their own satisfaction.. A guy with a cva bobcat from a bubblepack at the local wallymart,,is as welcome,,I mean no disrespect David,,but please keep in mind,,GB's NRA "is" an elite group. your knowledge far exceeds many. sum tymes ya gotta step'r down a notch jus so's they unnerstand,eah?

(ya coached me once David your lesson's are not forgotten), john :-)

dbm · « **Reply #21 on:** April 10, 2006, 10:23:46 PM »

Quote from: lostid

I mean no disrespect David,,but please keep in mind,,GB's NRA "is" an elite group. your knowledge far exceeds many. sum tymes ya gotta step'r down a notch jus so's they unnerstand,eah?

Assuming when you typed 'NRA' you missed the right keys and intended to type 'MLAGB' - the Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain is no elite group, just an association of collectors and shooters with an interest in muzzle loading arms, much like your NMLRA. We have shooters who enjoy 'plinking' on their home range and others who compete at international level, and a whole host in between. Members use Swiss powders and a wide range of others.

Not quite sure how we got here now. All I did was question the assertion that Swiss black powder was developed for black powder cartridge shooting; something I had never read before. I noted that it was widely used amongst members of the MLAGB, as the original question in this thread asked whether it was at designed for muzzle loaders or if it is a cartridge powder. I then referenced to a web site which has loading guidance for Swiss and muzzle loaders.

I can't see how how I could make things any simpler. :grin:

So back to the question at the top of this thread:

Quote

Iv'e just been checking out some Swiss powder. It is labled No.2,3fg. It has a shiny appearance like Goex "cartridge grade". Now, is the stuff I'm looking at designed for muzzle loaders or is it a cartridge powder?

Yes Swiss is suitable for muzzle loaders, and look at http://www.black-powder.co.uk/userguide.htm for some suggested loadings for a variety of muzzle loaders and Swiss powders.

David

jeager106 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 11, 2006, 12:23:56 AM »

David: Hey ol' man! Good to to see you are still out and about!
Pay no nevermind to lostid at all please.
Birddog6 is a fine man, a friend and a builder of fine muzzle laoding rifles.
I have two birddog built for me and they are stellar creations, a testiment to his craftsmanship.
There is a general rumor on this side of the pond that Swiss was developed for BPC but that is only a word of mouth error.
It is a true sporting grade powder that is very useful in BPC shooting.
That does come from Bill Knight and others.
I find it a very good powder for general muzzle loading IF one reduces charges by 20%.
In calibers .45 and over one should also go up one grain size, i.e. if you shoot Goex, or Elephant 2fg and want to use Swiss then use Swiss 1.5 fg.
I find Swiss very useful with cap'n ball revolvers.
Swiss Null B is the best pan powder I've ever used leaving no ash behind and it ignites easily.

lostid · « **Reply #23 on:** April 11, 2006, 04:18:14 PM »

Quote from: lostid

(ya coached me once David your lesson's are not forgotten), john :-)

I'll leave this thread alone now, thank you.