Author Topic: M1A Reloaders  (Read 1060 times)

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Offline slider

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M1A Reloaders
« on: March 23, 2006, 12:11:53 PM »
Hey fellow shooters, how many times are you using your brass for the M1A before disposing? Right now I'm firing twice and trashing, but I'm using moderate loads.
 My current loads are    150gr Hornady sst    
                                   Winchester brass/ Large Rifle Primer
                                   IMR 4064     42.7grs
 
 What other powders besides IMR 4064 /   4895  would you recommend for   150 gr bullets?   I've  tried ACC 2460 but wasn't that accurate.
 
What powders on the burn chart should I consider looking for, to keep the pressure right?    
                                             Thanks!!!!

Offline PaulS

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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2006, 09:40:39 PM »
Speer manual recommends powders with a 168 grain bullet - their match bullet - but nothing in the 150. The powders they recommend for gas operated match rifles are:

IMR4064, WW748, Re15, IMR4320, AA2460, AA2520, IMR4895, IMR3031, Re12, and BL-C(2)

That is a pretty wide range of powders and I would assume that they would work for bullets from 150 - 180 grain (slower powders for heavier bullets and faster powders for lighter ones. The hard part would be to find a charge that worked the action without beating it to death with an accurate load at the same charge.
PaulS

Hodgdon, Lyman, Speer, Sierra, Hornady = reliable resources
so and so's pages on the internet = not reliable resources
Alway check loads you find on the internet against manuals.
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads.

Offline Grumulkin

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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2006, 12:15:42 AM »
The most accurate powder I've used in my M1A has been IMR 4064 with 168 grain match bullets.

I use my cases a LOT more than 2 times.  I trash them if the primers pockets get loose or for other defects I find on inspection.  I'm sure some I have, have been reloaded at least 10 times.  I probably should seriously consider discarding some.

Offline gwindrider1

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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2006, 06:02:56 AM »
slider,

I've used W748 in my M!A with no reason to look at other powders since acquiring it 15 years ago.  I don't load it overly warm, but these loads approximate military ball ammo velocities, and I am sure that some of my cases have been through 10 loadings.  My rifle is a National Match version, and therefore has a rather tight headspace dimension.  You didn't mention whether your rifle is the standard or the N.M., but there could be some excess in the headspace causing your short case life.

I had a friend some years back who had one of the standards that would not tolerate a normal load what-so-ever.  Turned out that his headspace on that rifle was out of spec.  Might be worth investigating!  Best of luck with it! :D

Offline slider

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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2006, 10:15:54 AM »
Thanks for fast response!!   Your right, I forgot to mention its a STANDARD LOADED model that I just recently purchased new.
 I'm not having any problems with my brass, it's just I think I've read somewhere that M1A's are really hard on brass, and shouldn't be reloaded more than few times before  discarding.  I haven't had any problems at all, I was looking for more info on 150 gr bullets, and appropriate powders to go with these, since there is a pressure issue to worry about with the M1A's. Lot of info on 168 gr variety and safe powders to go with these bullets, but nothing really on what kind works well(and within the pressure range) of the 150 gr bullets.  

                     Thanks!!!

Offline Grumulkin

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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2006, 10:58:02 AM »
The most recent Hornady reloading manual has a section devoted specially to loads for the M1A.

Offline slider

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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2006, 11:22:27 AM »
Really, I have to pick 1 up. How many loads for 150gr bullets are we talking?  Also, any good pressure and powder info?

Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: M1A Reloaders
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2006, 12:26:11 PM »
slider

Perhaps this will help;

RCBS X-DIES: A TEST

By Larry M. Gibson


Surprisingly, there was little fanfare with the introduction of RCBS’s X-Dies.  All I saw were small blurbs in the trade magazines and mention of them in Rick Jamison’s Shooting Times column.  Advertised to reduce or eliminate case stretch the question is; do they?  My real interest was: Will they reduce case stretch, i.e. increase case life, of 7.62 NATO (that’s .308 WIN to you non-mil types) cases fired in M14/M1A’s?

The number of reloadings per case for M14/M1A’s is probably the worst of any rifle/cartridge combination short of the .303 Lee Enfield family.  Incipient head separation is the reason for case loss.  My experience with rack grade M14/M1A’s is five good firings per case with the sixth being a “throwaway”. This only if the brass was fired in a bolt gun or M14/M1A to begin with. A match M14/M1A with a tight “match” chamber may get 1-2 more firings but more often not. If surplus oncefired brass is used the first firing was more than likely done in a machine gun and only 1-2 reloadings/firings are possible before head separation.

Most head separations can be identified as a speckled crack forming around the case just ahead of the web at the expansion ring.  This crack is sometimes quite obvious.  Then on some cases the head will separate from the case on ejection.  Many times both parts of the separated case are ejected.  But sometimes only the head is ejected leaving the front half of the case in the chamber.  The rifle picks up the next round attempting to chamber it and things get jammed up. Not good!  The other question here; is there gas cutting damage to the chamber?

What causes this incipient head separation to happen?  Simply put, on firing, the case expands to grip the chamber walls sealing off the gas pressure.  When the bullet leaves the barrel pressures are reduced and the case contracts (not to its original dimensions) releasing it’s grip on the chamber walls and allowing extraction. However, it appears that the M14/M1A begins extraction prior to the pressure dropping completely.  The cases do not contract as much as they would if fired in a bolt action for instance.  Compounding the problem is the mil-specs for military chambers are somewhat generous in their diameter dimension to allow for functional reliability during combat conditions.  When full-length resizing (necessary for M14/M1A) case walls are squeezed in first.  This pushes the shoulder forward.  The shoulder is then set back by the FL die and the brass flows forward into and elongating the neck.  This increases the case length on each resizing considerably.  Also, since the brass at the expansion ring expanded and was squeezed in and forward during resizing the case gets progressively thinner in that specific area.  The result is, eventually, a head separation at that thinning location. Most mil-spec (US) chambers allow for a maximum case length of about 2.045”.  I, like most M14/M1A users, have found trimming unnecessary. Incipient case head separation will occur, and cases discarded, before maximum case length is reached and trimming is necessary.

Are these RCBS X-Dies a cure for this? I decided to use my rack grade M1A to put them to the test. The issue GI barrel has quite a generous mil-spec chamber with headspace being within tolerance.  This usually results in the fifth firing being the “throwaway” for brass in this rifle.  It has untold thousands of rounds through it, many rapid fire.  Accuracy capability is 2 1/2-3 MOA with M118 Special Ball or equivalent reload. This would be the best “worst case” test rifle. All rounds would be fired with the rifle loading from the magazine in normal semi-auto function.  Slow fire single loading technique would not be used.

For ammunition I selected 10 rounds of LC 92 M118 Special Ball.  A check for concentricity revealed a runout of .011” for one round with the others being .004-.007”.

My M118 equivalent load is:

BRASS: The 10 LC 92 cases from the selected M118 Special Ball
PRIMER: Winchester WLR
POWDWER:  H4895 – 41gr
BULLET:  M118 174gr
CARTRIDGE OAL: 2.8”

Other than deburring the flash hole, chamfering the case mouth and removing the primer pocket crimp, there was no special “case preparation” done. Cases were measured after each resizing with the minimum to maximum case lengths recorded.  Concentricity was checked after each loading.  Two cases (marked and tracked) consistently had .004-.005” runout with all others being .0005-.003” throughout the test. Neck thickness (outside diameter) was measured after each loading to check for brass flow into the neck area.

The test would be concluded based on any one of these criteria:

Any sign of incipient head separation.
Case buckled or dimensionally damaged/deformed during resizing.
Split neck or body.
Case length exceeding 2.045”.
Loose primer pockets.
Neck thickening to cause excessive runout (.010”).
Drastic deterioration of accuracy. (6th, 12th and 18th groups will
   be fired in Fulton Armory Match M1A to verify accuracy)
Malfunctions caused by damaged (dinged up) cases.

All test firing was conducted at Tacoma Rifle and Revolver range.
The range has solid cement benches, which were used with sandbag rests front and rear.  A 100 yard reduced “A” bull target was used.  All targets were at 100 yards.  I set up the Oehler 35P to chronograph all rounds fired for each 10 shot string.  But as the test went on, and on, and on I quit after the 10th string. Chronograph results were consistent and showed no variation other than that normally expected.  The LC 92 M118 averaged 2600 FPS and the M118 equivalent reload averaged 2575 FPS for the subsequent 9 ten shot strings chronographed.

The RCBS X-Die was installed in my Pacific single stage press and adjusted as per the instructions.  It’s really quite easy.  These dies differ from other FL dies in the dimension and design of the decapping rod.  The diameter of the rod is larger and appears to act as a mandrill of sorts.  There is a shoulder on it, which controls the length as the case. Apparently the case is prevented from stretching by the case mouth butting against this shoulder. Thus the decapping rod must be carefully adjusted as per the instructions.  This shoulder is the key to the success of the die.

I found on the second resizing that the expander was really getting hard to pull through the necks.  Also, the lengths of the cases were varying more than I thought they should.  Case lubing technique was changed to standing the cases in a tray. They were then sprayed lightly with Dillon case lube. With this method the necks (lube gets sprayed lightly into the case mouth) pulled over the expander quite easily and the uniformity of case length dramatically improved. Cases are cleaned again to remove the lube.  This should also  remove the lube from the inside of the case neck.

Throughout the test case length never exceeded 2.027” and actually remained quite consistent.  After the 12th resizing the necks had begun to thicken by about .001” at the shoulder to taper forward about 1/3 of the way to the case mouth.  However, this did not adversely effect concentricity or accuracy.

The case rims got a little beat up but there were no malfunctions of any kind.  This included the 2 firings in the match chamber M1A.  Primer pockets remained tight throughout the test.  I thought the case mouths would require rechamfering but they did not.  Accuracy remained consistent with the rack grade M1A.  The LC 92 M118 ten shot group was 2.8”.  The last (15th) ten shot group with the M118 equivalent load was 2.4”. The average of groups 2-15 being 2.7”.  Groups 6 and 12 were fired with the match M1A to verify the accuracy and both were 1.6”.

The test was concluded after the 15th firing based on incipient head separation.  One case developed that slight speckled circle at the expansion ring.  There was no clear-cut crack and probably no gas cutting happened.  I may or may not continue the test with the rest of the cases.
   
Tabulated below are the measurements after each resizing:
   
RESIZING   MINIMUM    MAXIMUM   INCREASE
            CASE        CASE     IN CASE
            LENGTH     LENGTH    LENGTH

1           2.013      2.019      
      
2           2.021      2.025      .006              

3           2.025      2.027      .002

4           2.025      2.027      .000

5           2.022      2.027      .000

6           2.023      2.025     -.002

7           2.023      2.025      .000

8           2.024      2.026      .001

9           2.024      2.027      .001

10          2.025      2.027      .000

11          2.025      2.027      .000

12          2.024      2.026     -.001

13          2.025      2.026      .000

14          2.024      2.027      .001


Case length evened out at the third resizing and remained fairly consistent.  Interestingly #’s 6 & 12 that were fired in the match M1A  show a decrease in length!  At #12 is where I detected a thickening (.001”) of the case necks in the shoulder area which tapered forward.  Again this did not effect concentricity or accuracy.

Questions not addressed in this test:

1. Case life when used in match chambers or bolt guns?

2. Case life of cases already fired several times?

3. Case life of surplus once-fired (in machine guns) cases?

4. Case life of civilian manufactured(Rem,Win,Fed,PMC,et all) cases?

The answers to these questions will probably have results as positive, if not more so, than this test.

My technique for loading M14/M1A ammo now will probably be as follows:

1. Clean cases
2. Stand cases in loading trays and spray lightly with Dillon case lube.
3. Size with RCBS X-Die using Pacific single stage press.
4. Clean cases.  Clean primer pockets. (On 1st resizing prep cases by: remove primer crimp, deburr flash hole, turn necks, trim to uniform length and chamfer case mouth). Conduct visual inspection for defects (split necks, head separation, etc.).
5. Load on Dillon 550B.  Use a  Bonanza neck size die or a Redding bushing die at station 1.  This may or may not be necessary.  The idea here is to iron out any dents the second cleaning may have caused in the case mouth and maybe uniform neck tension on the bullet.

This limited test revealed that; using the RCBS X-Dies, when reloading for the M14/M1A, one may expect 3 times or more firings per case as when using standard dies. I have been using Bonanza Benchrest FL Dies prior to this.  I’ve never found the need for small base dies, as some recommend, for they really shorten case life.  

This increase of case life is, in my opinion, truly astounding. Also, it appears case trimming is unnecessary. I would hope RCBS would make them in a wider array of caliber’s than currently available.  I will buy more of them.  When I think of the thousands of 5-6 times fired brass I have thrown out … Oh well!

Offline slider

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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2006, 01:17:19 PM »
Thanks very informative!!

Offline kombi1976

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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2006, 08:21:28 PM »
Probably dumb questions from a beginner completely unfamiliar with the M1A apart from by it's reputation(all good of course). :wink:
Are you guys loading to 7.62 NATO levels(approx. 52,000psi m.a.p.) or do you load to 308 Winchester levels(62,000psi m.a.p.)?
I ask this because the platform was designed for the NATO round(I think?) and I'm unaware of it's pressure limits.
Sadly I live in Australia where the fe3deral and state governments decided in 1996 that law abiding gun owners were too dangerous to trust with semi-automatics.
As such, unless I had some very strong and specific reasons for it, I'd probably never have a chance to use a M1A, let alone own one.
Which is a crying shame because they're probably the only modern military style rifle I actually like.
But enough whining. :roll:
BTW, does anyone rebarrel these to 7mm-08 or 260 Rem for hunting use?
8)

Cheers & God Bless

.22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 NE 3"

Offline Larry Gibson

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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2006, 08:11:15 AM »
Quote from: kombi1976
Probably dumb questions from a beginner completely unfamiliar with the M1A apart from by it's reputation(all good of course). :wink:
Are you guys loading to 7.62 NATO levels(approx. 52,000psi m.a.p.) or do you load to 308 Winchester levels(62,000psi m.a.p.)?........BTW, does anyone rebarrel these to 7mm-08 or 260 Rem for hunting use?


Lots of misconceptions, urban legends and old wife's tales that consider the "difference" between the 7.62 NATO and the .308 Winchester. Since both are U.S. developments I'll stick with that data. Referencing TM 9-1305-200 dated June 1961; psi is calculated from CUPs. Average Pressure is based on a +/- 7,000 psi. M59 Ball has an average pressure that will not exceed 50,000 psi, M80 Ball (most common military round) can have an average velocity between 45,000 and 65,000 depending on the temperature.  SAAMI lists the MAXIMUM pressure based on original CUP standards of the .308 Winchester at less than the AVERAGE pressure listed for M80 Ball. In many actual pressure tests much commercial .308 ammo actually has less pressure than M80 Ball when both are fired in the same barrel and the same means of measurement is used. However, just because one is higher or lower than the other doesn't mean either is unsafe as both fall within safe specification.

There are to many that don't understand the difference between the various methods of measuring chamber pressure. The CUP method has no direct corollary to psi obtained by the pziezo measuring devices. Comparing the chamber headspace dimensions of the civilian vs military chambers has no corollary to the safe pressures of either round either. There are lots of sites that make bogus comparisons to justify their answer. The truth is both rounds are safe pressure wise when fired in either chamber. Milspec cases for the 7.62 have thicker brass in the web area to prevent case separation during the violent action of military full auto weapons. Interesting to note that the old white box M118 cases were thinner in the web than ball brass. They are very comparable to R-P cases in thickness and weight. A bajillion rounds of M118 have been fired through M14s/M1As and commercial target bolt guns with tight match chambers with out the slightest hint of pressure problems. I have also fired thousands of M80 rounds through commercial SAAMI .308 chambers without problems. I also have likewise fired quite a bit of civilian .308 ammo (Winchester, Remington and Federal) through M1A/M14s. I know of many, many other high power competitors who have done the same. To answer the question; yes the M1A is a strong enough platform for .308 Winchester.

Originally there was a caution not to use commercial .308 ammo (W-W in particular) because the web was much thinner and case head separation was a possibility. It had absolutely nothing to do with the operating pressures of either cartridge being unsafe in either chamber. This simple caution has grown into the “.308 vs 7.62” urban legend we have today. Stupidly it has also transgressed into a “.223 vs 5.56” controversy for the same bogus reasons.

I have seen several M1As rebarreled to .22-250, .243 Winchester, 6.5x08, 7x08 and even a .358 Winchester.

It is unfortunate that things are the way they are there now. I spent a very enjoyable month back in the mid '80s out Perth/Freemantle way working with the SAS at Campbell Barracks. I was there for the weapons part of a major socops exorcise and we did lots of shooting of many, many different weapons. You're SAS were/are some very good troops. I enjoyed the time very much.

Larry Gibson

Offline gwindrider1

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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2006, 02:25:44 PM »
Larry,

You are a wealth of information on this subject.  Thanks for taking the time to transfer so much knowledge! :D

Offline slider

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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2006, 04:43:26 PM »
Yeah , Larry is a data bank of M1A info to say the least!!

                  Thanks Larry

Offline kombi1976

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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2006, 06:21:53 PM »
Thanks for the clarification on a dumb question, Larry. :oops:  
We think our SAS guys are pretty too. :wink:
8)

Cheers & God Bless

.22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 NE 3"

Offline Larry Gibson

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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2006, 07:29:19 AM »
Quote from: kombi1976
Thanks for the clarification on a dumb question, Larry. :oops:  
We think our SAS guys are pretty too. :wink:


I also had the pleasure of working with your boys in the 1 RAR in Vietnam when they were attached to the 173d Airborne Brigade (SEP). My gawd could they drink beer!

Larry Gibson

Offline kombi1976

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« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2006, 12:05:33 PM »
Well, there aren't as many of or guys as there are of yours but we like to think we train them well.
Our SAS have earned themselves a reputation of excellence in Iraq and particularly Afghanistan and we've only had one casuality in each country.
As for the drinking, it's a national past time. :wink:
Afterall they've gotta keep their arm in.
Best way to work on those biceps. :lol:
8)

Cheers & God Bless

.22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 NE 3"