AK-47 thoughts, caliber, reputation

[nasem]

This is more of a general question about the AK-47....

I am kind of confused about this ak-47, I was told that the REAL ak-47 uses .308 rounds (not the punny 7.62 x 39), is this true ?  Cause when I look up the prices of buying a brand new romanian Ak-47, they are priced for about $300 and they ALL come in 7.62X39

In the military, does the AK-47 get used with .308 or 7.62X39?

How accurate is the ak-47 with either round (308 or 7.62X39)?

Can you fit a scope on the ak-47 ? if yes, what types of rings / bases?

1 last question, are they fun to shoot in either round ?

[Daks]

Never fired one, but I loved the line from the movie "Jackie Brown", when the arms dealer is discussing the finer points of various weapons being modeled on a video. When the AK 47 is shown, he says something like "AK 47! When you absolutely, positively have to kill every m-f'er in the room, accept NO substitutes!!"

From that, I gathered it had a pretty colorful reputation...

[Ocsamschainsaw]

WHoever told you that is full of it.
The "real" ak-47 is nearly identical to the AKM exept for having a milled reciever body and parts machined to fit into it. Can't use a milled stock on a stamped and vice-versa, but handguards interchange as do magazines and muzzle attachments (usually, if they are in standard 14x1LH).
What you usually see is called an "AKM", using a stamped sheet metal reciever, and they are in 7.62x39mm, as were the AK-47's.
Military use is generally resricted to 7.62x39 or 5.45x39mm, with .308 and .223 versions earmarked for export.
The only .308 ak's I've EVER heard of were the Yugoslavian Export Models, M76 "sniper" models converted from 8mm to .308 (har har), the short lived .308 Israeli Galil, some valmet sporters and the sporting Saigas imported by EAA/RAA.
Those are NOT common, except for the Saigas, and magazines will be crazy difficult to find, especially if you've got an M76 or a Valmet.
Youc an scope any AK, this is usually accomplished by using a side rail on the reciever to mount a bracket upon which a scope, if military, is integral, or, if sporting type, a weaver rail is attached to.
You can also use the Top Cover of the gun to mount a scope, and there are all sorts of rails and ring setups for this from .22 rings to weaver, and beyond.
Accuracy depends on the individual gun, but due to the number of flexing parts in the long stroke design it's hampered a bit.
Still, I've seen some of the 5.45x39mm (newer russian round) AK's shoot on par or better than a stock AR-15.
In 7.62x39mm?
My romanian ak in 7.62x39mm works just fine, gives acceptable (5-6 inch) groups at 100 yards iron sights.
My AMD-65 is a crap shoot beyond 75 yards, but then again it's not the toast of the town with a 12 inch rifled section of the barrel either.
They're fun to shoot in ANY round...
Though..
If I HAD to pick my caliber, it'd be 7.62x39mm, based on ammo cost and availability alone.
There are many .223 ak's out there, but magazines can be a problem to get working right, especially if you have a Norinco one...the romanian .223's take East German ak mags fine, so that's a bit easier.
.308 AK's? Forget finding new hi-cap mags. They're nonexistant. You'll have to convert your saiga somehow to take m-14 mags. Valmets and the like are too costly for me to even begin contemplate owning much less shooting.
5.45x39mm ak's are a BLAST to shoot, magazines are ALL over the place...
But ammo is impossible to find in many areas and must be ordered online. It can get very cheap, as cheap as 7.62x39mm at times, but the supply is always in flux, at least from what I've seen.
They are more than acceptable for hunting, especially in .308 or 7.62x39mm-and can easily be fitted with a lower capacity magazine for such jurisdictions that mandate it. I am lucky enough to live in one that does not.
the 7.62x39mm is the ballistic twin of the .30-30 rifle round, and the .308 speaks for itself.
The .223 can be used as well, state allowing, but shot placement is important.
I've heard of guys taking game with 5.45mm guns, but not sure of the legality in many areas, the bullet certainly has enough stopping power to do so as long as reasonable (.223 style) ranges are adhered to.

[nasem]

I would also like to add this:

I am in the middle of thinking of getting a new repeater, my only repeater that I own is a remington 7400 in 30-06

my choices are the following:

1) Browning BAR in 338 win mag (oh yeh baby)
2) AK-47 in 7.62X39 OR .308 (which ever one you guys think is better)
3) Hesse Ak-47 style rifle with 10-round mag (.308 caliber)

what am I going to use this rifle for... mostly deer / elk, I am also planning a trip this coming november to alaska, so, you never know what I might run into

[Ocsamschainsaw]

Oh good god, stay away from Hesse.
I've seen very few Hesse Built rifles run right...
Their recievers, if you build your own, are great-but something goes wrong when Robert Hesse assembles them in shop. Even then, the hesse recievers have needed tig welding on the ejector before, as they did NOT come properly treated for quite some time. But others have had better luck.
The BAR...well, if you want a serious hunting rifle, that might be better for you, but the AK will certainly stand up to far more abuse as is far more versatile.
I would personally, if you already have a remington sporting rifle, go for the 7.62x39mm ak. Not Hesse. Get a Romanian or Yugoslavian one, they're all over the place right now.
With the money you save from choosing a milsurp style ak in 7.62x39 over the BAR, you can buy the gun, 4 extra hicap mags or lowcap mags, your choice...and a case of 500-1000 rounds of ammunition EASILY. Sounds like a better deal to me, but that's just my .02.

[Ocsamschainsaw]

Here's a personal example of a scoped AK in 7.62x39mm. That's a romanian, with Bulgarian stock set, bipod and soviet 4x32 scope on it.
I'd imagine it could do very fine for hunting, given the accuracy that it displays, and it would be far more portable with a shorter 10 round magazine. Apologies for the shoddy photo quality!

[Ocsamschainsaw]

And another romanian ak..this one's still got the sporterized stock on it, same bipod as on the other rifle (fits over the barrel, in between the gas and front sight blocks, secures using cleaning rod tension and set screws).

[nasem]

is the 7.62X39 a good round for deer / elk ?

[Ocsamschainsaw]

7.62x39mm can be used anywhere a .30-30 would be appropriate. The stopping power is exactly the same. In fact, Wolf Ammunition loads a 154 grn. SP bullet for hunting-most 7.62x39mm bullets are 123 grn.
That is to say, most elk/deer shots would be just fine with it if kept in levergun ranges

[nasem]

You guys made such a good argument, that... I couldn't choose between the BAR .338 win mag and the ak-47..... SO I GOT EM BOTH (laugh)

anyways, my .338 is still being shipped, but I am holding my ak right now, its pretty, i got it from duhnams for 289$, has a 30-rnd banana clip, and looks scarry like a mother.....

I am not sure of what type of ammo to buy, I was thinking about the wolf 122-gr FMJ (500 case for 65$), I also wanted to put a scope on it, I was thinking about the bushnell banner 4x12x40 (making it a vermin gun)

what do you ak experts think ?

[1911crazy]

Get a Saiga in 308win its far more accurate than any other ak made.  Then get the saiga in .223 then you have it covered.  No other AK can match a Saiga.  You don't need large mags to enjoy this sporter.  I can shoot 1 1/2" groups with south african fmj ammo @ 100yds.  I have read that some guys are shooting the 16" barreled saiga 308 as far as 200yds to 400yds+ with no scope accurately too. Here's a Russian rifle made at Izhmash by the same people who manufacture the AK47 who took the same design and turned it into a sporting rifle.  They focused on making them more accurate but they still have the AK dependability and reliability along with the russian quality chrome lined barrel and chamber. You really need to take a look at this new gun it rocks.

go to; www.raacfirearms.com  and take a look.  This is the hottest thing to hit our shores since the very first chinese norinco sks did in the late 80's and its a sporting rifle thats design is proven the world over in battle too.  I bought mine to hunt with.

I also have a 338win.mag too its a Remington 700 i purchased back in '94 when they still had quality rifles.  She can put two rounds thru the same hole at 100yds using new winchester 338win ammo.  It doesn't like remington ammo for some reason. You must remember too the 338winmag has 4,000ft.lbs @ the muzzle and 2,800ft.lbs at 200yds thats the muzzle energy of an '06 at 200yds.  The bears don't like this round either.

[msorenso]

how do I go about making Saiga look like the ak instead of the sporter model? Will the hand grips transfer??

[Bigfoot]

That AK-47 doesn't look like a very good one to me, I'll bet they didn't manufacture very many of em.  

[1911crazy]

how do I go about making Saiga look like the ak instead of the sporter model? Will the hand grips transfer??

Go to; www.cross-conn.com/saiga_conversion/index.htm

These are flying off my dealers shelves faster than the sks's ever did its the hottest buy on the planet just like i said it would be.  It won't jam like the ar/m16's do for sure and there only around $300+ or - too.

[msorenso]

Sweet Thanks!!!

[1911crazy]

Don't mix up the two saiga's in 308win either the saiga sporter is the one that there converting into the ak style gun and the saiga model 100 hunter is a different gun so make sure you get the right one. Your getting a brand new russian made AK47 in a sporter wrapper thats more accurate than its ak brothers too.

I wouldn't trade my two saiga's in 308win and in .223rem for any other gun out there and if i sold all my guns i would keep these two they are tops.  Just lube them up with moly and hammer and shoot the snots out of them there made for it and can take any kind of abuse too. Just moly them up and your good to go.  Moly eliminates all wear so good the finish were the bolt carrier rides won't wear off too. Now i wonder what will wearout first the chrome lined bore and chamber or the moly'ed up receiver?  I think the moly makes the wear race pretty even between the two so the gun should last even longer way past my lifetime and maybe into the next century too.

[nasem]

those Saiga 308 are soooo nice.....
So you say they have very nice accuracy ?

I might get one for $300, but do they make em in the ak-47 pistol grip, cause that website made it look kinda hard to convert it into an ak-47 look lol, help me out here D man

[1911crazy]

From what i'm hearing there not hard to convert to the orginal "AK" look. I'm very happy with the feel and look of the saiga in its orginal condition. The performance of these is unbelieveable you have to try one and i'm sure you'll go for more.  The saiga in both 308win and in .223rem with there 16" barrels are awesome.  I'm shooting south african 308 ball FMJ ammo and wolf .223rem ammo with no problems with either one. I find that the saiga's are very accurate and even more accurate than their ak brothers are too.  If you always wanted a springfield armory m1a 308 and the $1,200 price tag is keeping you from buying one the affordable saiga is your hot ticket at $350.(308win) Nothing on the market today can match the russian izhmash quality nor the dependable battle proven AK design too.  I never owned an AK rifle till I got my very first saiga and i have to say i missed out for all these years on an awesome rifle.

But remember there are different saiga's too. You want the saiga sporter with the synthetic stock.  There is a wood stock sporter in 308 and the saiga model 100 in 308 and in 30-06 is a totally different gun while its an AK design the safety is different so it may or may not be converted into an AK looking rifle.

I know that many will complain about the 8rd 308 mag and the 10rd .223 mag but thats BS if you ask me.  I'm very happy with the smaller capacity mags.  If my 308 had a larger mag i would just go thru more ammo at the range and maybe even tripple the amount i do shoot too.  So having a smaller mag sure does save me $$ at the range.

Just buy one and try it then post here what you think about it....

[nasem]

The one I like is the "Saiga 308" and when I go to their website, it only shows it in the wooden stock:  http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_308.htm

I like the looks of it alot, and I only wanted to convert it into pistol grip (keep everything else the same).  Do you know a website that sells this type of conversion ?

[1911crazy]

You might try asking the guys on the saiga site but i think there are lots of places to get the parts.

try;  www.saiga-12.com

There just offering the wood stock saiga sporter in 308 now.  My dealer has the saiga sporters with the synthetic stocks in his racks right now. I may get another one while there still available.

[nasem]

well, I called up the local gun dealer, he said that Saiga doesn't seem to be imported by European American Armory any more, he doesn't know where to look for one so he can order it for me...  

Other thing is, I still can't find any Saiga parts (mainly for the conversion)

[1911crazy]

well, I called up the local gun dealer, he said that Saiga doesn't seem to be imported by European American Armory any more, he doesn't know where to look for one so he can order it for me...  

Other thing is, I still can't find any Saiga parts (mainly for the conversion)

The new saiga importer is; www.raacfirearms.com

Go to; www.saiga-12.com then go to the 308 forum and post to ask the guys there were they got there parts from they are good guys and they will help you out too no problem.

[corbanzo]

That AK-47 doesn't look like a very good one to me, I'll bet they didn't manufacture very many of em.  

hahahahaha, yeah, not many... only the most widely and large scale produced firearm of all time!!!  I have a romanian AK, and it's a kick in the pants, love it.  Though the finger does get tired after a while...   .  You can get other modified kalishnikov actions that take a variety of different calibers, but with the same reliability.  

http://www.zastava-arms.co.yu/english/civilni.htm

You can find some AK's with the scope rail already installed.

[1911crazy]

That AK-47 doesn't look like a very good one to me, I'll bet they didn't manufacture very many of em.  

hahahahaha, yeah, not many... only the most widely and large scale produced firearm of all time!!!  I have a romanian AK, and it's a kick in the pants, love it.  Though the finger does get tired after a while...   .  You can get other modified kalishnikov actions that take a variety of different calibers, but with the same reliability.  

http://www.zastava-arms.co.yu/english/civilni.htm

You can find some AK's with the scope rail already installed.

The smaller calibers are cheaper to shoot so you need to have both the 308win saiga and a saiga in .223rem too.  They also come in 7,62x39 and 5,45x39 too.  This is a brand new Russian Izhmash manufactured AK47 thats in a sporter wrapper. This isn't a rework its a brand new AK russian made for our sporting market.  They also offer model 100 hunting saigas too with 3 shot mags.  There's a 308win wood stock siaga sporter too. Besides the AK designed shot guns too.  These are the hottest thing to hit our shores since the very first chinese norinco sks did in the late 80's.  You have to check these out and if you buy one i'm sure you'll go for more too.

With the 308win saiga with the 16" barrel and 22" barrel from the guys who shoot/own both they say there is no difference in accuracy at 100yds.
They also say the saiga in 308 is more accurate than the remington semi-auto in 308 too.

[nasem]

ok D MAN
I did some research and found some conversion parts, however I need to know if the saiga 308 is "mill resiever" or "stamped"

the parts are for either mill or stamped

let me know what you think

thanks

[1911crazy]

ok D MAN
I did some research and found some conversion parts, however I need to know if the saiga 308 is "mill resiever" or "stamped"

the parts are for either mill or stamped

let me know what you think

thanks

The saiga is a stamped receiver.

Some guys don't like the stamped receivers over the steel machined receivers.  They think there solid receiver AK is the best but its not its only heavier.  I found there is nothing wrong with a stamped sheetmetal receiver the russians have the process down good now.

My saiga in 308 was my very first stamped sheetmetal receiver rifle.  I'm very impressed with the accuracy, the dependability, the reliability and the quality of this brand new russian AK designed rifle.
With its chrome linded bore and chamber which will probably outlast the receiver i use a moly to lube the receiver to bring it to an even ground with the barrel so nothing will ever wearout.  The gun should last well into the next generation of my family and for future generations to come too
 and beyond into the next century.

Moly eliminates all wear, reduces friction and prevents galling, it stays were you put it and doesn't attract dirt.  I works into the small pores of the metal and wears against itself its moly against moly thus no metal to metal contact means no wear its been totally eliminated.  You will never see any wear of any kind at all.

I put moly inside the receiver on the rails where the bolt carrier/bolt ride, on the bolt were it contacts the bolt carrier, on the trigger sear, on the gas piston and gas tube(just a little will do to prevent wear when it gets hot)

And some will say the gas piston/gas tube doesn't need lube they let it operate completely dry.  I have seen a lot of shooter grade yugo sks's with wornout tubes and pistons due to no lube was used there's the proof it needs a lube but the correct lube must be used and moly is the only one to use.  

Its neglect letting the gas system run completely dry so the proper authorities must be contacted so sks abuse charges can be filed.
(just kidding gosh i crack my self up)  But i have never seen a metal to metal contact surface left to run dry in all my days of machine building it just doesn't make any sense its like driving your car with no oil?

[1911crazy]

That AK-47 doesn't look like a very good one to me, I'll bet they didn't manufacture very many of em.  

Your kidding me right?  The AK47 design is the most popular and battle proven weapon of all time.  There is nothing that comes close to an AK47 wether you like it or not. Its the most dependable, the most reliable and one of the best quality rifles to come out of russia today. No modern hunting rifle today can match the performance nor the price of the AK47 designed Saiga.