After reloading fireformed cases, A little hard to close

[Yel95]

I fire formed some brass, trimmed and reloaded.  Now the handi is a little harder to close than it was before the brass was fireformed.  Anyone have this happen?

[trotterlg]

Fireformed from what to what?  Did you full length size or just neck size?  The case is just a little long, so it is hard to close because it is crushing the round some.  If you full length sized then you need to make sure the dies are set to touch when you size it, if you neck sized only you need to full length size.  Guess you also could have the bullet seated too long and it is being pushed into the lands, however with the long throats handi's have that is un-likely.  Larry

[Yel95]

I had some winchester 150 grain power points.  After using them I reloaded the brass.  I measured the brass and it was within spec.  I have been reloading using a neck size die for years with many rifles and have never had this issue.  I'll try to full length size.  Thanks....

[Fred M]

Yel 95.
Handloading for the Handi rifle is not quite the same as for a bolt action. The Handi action has no caming power to handle oversize cartridges.

Case heads must be 0.002" below the barrel face. If the action does only partial close, your barrel latch is not completlely seated on the barrel locking notch.

Also the primers must be below the case heads and not sticking out.

This causes poor accuracy and can actually open the action when fired.

If your bullets are in the lands or just up to them you must make a powder reduction. Pressure will increase by 7ksi. In a boltaction this is not noticable, but in a Handi it can produce sticky cases  and undue case stretching.

This is the reason why H&R uses a long free bore so bullets can't be loaded into the lands. For instance using factory 270 ammo with a pressure of 62KSI, long seated bullets in or on the land would then operate a near 70ksi. Too much for a Handi.

This is not to say you can't load into the lands for best accuracy but the Handi requires a reduction in powder.

In my experience neck sizing for a Handi does not produce satifactory ammo. Handi rifles operate best with moderate loads below max.

[Dean van Praotl]

Yel95, break actions, like the Handi or TC Contenders, flex a little when fired.  The pressure can push the breech back enough that cases will stretch a bit more than they would in a bolt gun.  The result is a case that is actually too long for the chamber.  Using a full length die adjusted to bump the shoulder back slightly should work.

[Mac11700]

Yel95:

I have found just the opposite of what Fred has said with my rifles...All Handi's have a certain amount of gap between the barrel and reciever unless you have changed this by shimming...and this is what you need to measure with a feeler gauge. My barrels measure between .001" and .0015" gap...and this is what I set my reloading dies too.

By setting the dies this way...my accuracy has incresed 100% and I don't have to trim as often..If your case head is sticking out more than the barrel frame gap is..it will be more difficult to close...so measure your gap..and set your dies to this..

Neck sizing your cases can help..but only if your case dimension isn't out of round to begin with...and if it is..you will have to index your cases and reinsert the same way each time  to accomodate this.In time you will have to bump the shoulder back a tiny fraction..but the less resizing you do will be a benifit and you'll only need to a little at a time(hopefully)...

Both of my new extractor Handi barrels are tight chambered and have normal throat lenghts...so atleast for my 25-06 & 280 NEF has done it right...and this is great!!!!!!..... In the past with other Handi's I have had no problem with excessive case stretching..case seperation..or anything else by doing it this way and I have loaded up to and slightly over the recommended loadings with my Handi's.... Each rifle will be different...and this is why you need to measure your barrel gap with a feeler gauge...

This method of reloading is exactly how Bruce Merkur of Redding suggested to me for loading for any break action rifle...and I'll put my rifles and groups up against most bolt actions....and this is using full house loads...not some reduced variation of them...I don't have his telephone number right now..but when I get home later tonight I'll post it for you or PM you it.....He is a wealth of imformation and can talk your ear off on reloading...

Mac

EDIT: Bruce Merkur's phone number is 1-607-753-3331

Tim

[Fred M]

Mac.
Either one of my two Handi's have no gap, they are tightly fitted to the standing breech. In this, the case- head has to be at least flush with the face of the barrel nothing whatsoever sticks out..

So a one to two thou head space works well enough.

For the 6x47 I had a custom Benchrest die made with a 262 neck size bushing. The die will size the body one thou less than fired and set the shoulder back what ever is needed.

The necks are outside reamed to 0.0108 and the bullets will have about 0.0025 tension. I also have a 261 bushing if I need a bit more tension with the Moly bullets.

This is not the average Handi environment but the results are good with gopher of angle accuracy.

Just about ready to go when I get the custom scope bases finished. They are a fidly job and it taxes my patience specially after doing nothing all winter.

[Mac11700]

Mac.
Either one of my two Handi's have no gap, they are tightly fitted to the standing breech. In this, the case- head has to be at least flush with the face of the barrel nothing whatsoever sticks out..

So a one to two thou head space works well enough.

For the 6x47 I had a custom Benchrest die made with a 262 neck size bushing. The die will size the body one thou less than fired and set the shoulder back what ever is needed.

The necks are outside reamed to 0.0108 and the bullets will have about 0.0025 tension. I also have a 261 bushing if I need a bit more tension with the Moly bullets.

This is not the average Handi environment but the results are good with gopher of angle accuracy.

Just about ready to go when I get the custom scope bases finished. They are a fidly job and it taxes my patience specially after doing nothing all winter.

I know Fred...Yours is set up way different than what 99.999% of Handi's are to begin with...and since you have no barrel gap to begin with..makes it all the better to set your cases perfectly from the get go....This is why I said what I did....Not all Handi's are equal in this regards...

NEF has gotten soo much better lately in this department...and the barrel deminsions are much better than it was just 3 years ago...Since we are loading for a single shot..we have a-lot more latitude with this than with a bolt gun.With the Handi..you can measure your exact amount of headspace on each shell..and this is what is recommended for correct functioning and optimum accuracy with standard Handi's.

If a person takes their barrel off..and drops a new case into the chamber..and they measure if the case is flush-below-or above the chamber opening..then they can determine if it will work properly.They make a tool specificlly for doing this..or one can use a feeler gauge set..

One has to adjust the dies and set the heaspace for each rifle..For a reloader..this is a extra step but one well worth the effort..for the non-reloader..they can do the same thing with factory ammo..

If a person has already measured the barrel to frame gap..and have found it to be .003"-.004".....and then they drop a new case into the chamber..and it drops below the rim by .002"...then they will have started with a case that has .005"-.006" headspace..now...what kind of performance will their Handi give then???

 I've resized like this like  before..and and now resize  as I have described..the accuracy,and performance is gone setting up the resizing die to induce headspace..most likely you'll get major case stretching..and flatten primers..long before anything else..not to mention trying to work up loads on a ladder test..you'll never achieve the performance from this case loading it this way....

Now..say a person has dropped a new factory loaded cartridge into the chamber..and it drops below the rim by .002"...and their barrel frame gap is .003"-.004"...this same person will not get good performance or consistancy from this paticular lot of ammunition either..and folks wonder why they get flyers and factory ammo that doesn't shoot good..cases sticking..flatten primers,and excessive case stretching.....they need to confirm that none of thr cases start below the rim..and reject the ones that do..

Each lot of factory ammo...and each lot of new factory brass will have cases they vary in lenght in them...they are usually all within "specs".....and it is up to the Handloader to check them...and not assume they are all the same...because they are not...Some will be flush..some will be above..and some will be below the rim..All the ones that come closet to fitting the barrel frame gap will give the best performance.....

This is why a reloader needs to have the barrel frame gap measurement to begin with..before you start reloading and a non-reloader needs to know this too...and check the factory ammunittion..It's better to be at a neutral level... with the case peferctly flush with the rim of the chamber...than to start off at a negative level with it below for most Handi's...and it's even better to have the case sized to fit perfectly to include the barrel frame gap...providing the chamber and throat are true..the best accuracy will be easiest to achieve ..

There will be a bit of resistance doing it this way of course..but the case is loaded 1 at a time and by hand....You'll only need to bump the shoulder back when you go over the barrel frame gap measurement...and if the case is to fat..getting a body die that leaves the neck alone and allows you to bump the shoulder works great as well...
Mac

[Fred M]

Mac.
I know what you are saying, also there should be no gap. Yes a 2 thou below the face of the barrel plus a 5thou gap is bad news. My two thou head space is only applicable with no gap.

I do not agree that the quality is better now then it was three years ago. Only a few days ago I inspected a new Ultra 243 in the store. I was so loose the likes I never came accross.

Can't see how a setup like that will ever be accurate specially in 243  which is a desaster to load for in a sloppy chamber and lockup. 243 is bad enough in a tight chamber and lock uo. I never did have any use for a 243 for more reasons than one.

There is a new Lapua case 6mm and 6.5 x48 with a .600 long neck and a 30 deg shoulder 308 bolt face.

A223 Handi rebored to 6mm or 6.5 with that Lapua chamber be a real winner.

[nomosendero]

Mac
Thanks for providing this information, this is what forums SHOULD be about.  Obviously loading for the Handi, as loading for any rifle or handgun, requires serious thought if you desire accuracy & of course safety.

Something else that is very apparant here is that we must consider the
fact that we WILL NOT get the desired results for the Handi if we load just like many of use have for years with our bolt guns. Of course if you load for an auto, you have to factor in the reliability aspects for some at least
& then accuracy second. If I loaded my 25-06AI or 300Mag Sendero's the way I would for someones 30-06 Auto, my accuracy just would not be close to what I get now. Bottom line is we must load a Handi with the characteristics of the Handi in mind. Your post & conversations/pms that we have had make this very clear. I have NO doubt that this has a lot to do with why some folks do not achieve the results that they should.

Fred M, what is the case cap. of this Lapua round?

[Mac11700]

Fred M wrote..I do not agree that the quality is better now then it was three years ago. Only a few days ago I inspected a new Ultra 243 in the store. I was so loose the likes I never came accross.
..

Fred...I'm talking about the quality of the new barrels being produced now...not those that have been sitting for a year or two...Over the last 3 years..and with a tremendous amount of calling the company by everyone..and their making post all over the internet..and in part to this site and all the great folks here(re..Handiholics..)..NEF is coming around...The trigger jobs they have done have gone from 7-12lbs..and a 1/2lb of grit...to some slicker than snot with no creep at all...very few stripped out screws..bashed stocks..or actions with huge barrel gaps or lousy lock ups...not to mention much better diemensions on the chambers..bettter quality of blueing and finish.....These are a long way from what they were turning out..Perhaps I am just in a place that has a better (steady) flow thru the dealers than you..because they are great sellers around here..and I look at a bunch of them on a regular basis...My understanding of what is happening at the plant is they are changing out the equipment sooner..so...this might account for it..and also they are listening to what folks are saying...sure...there will always be room for improvement..but never-the-less..the folks there are doing a pretty good job of late..

Mac

[Fred M]

nomosendero

Fred M, what is the case cap. of this Lapua round?

To honest I don't know, but from what I see and think it will perhaps hold about 48gr H2O. I is a target round simular to the 6mm David Tubb. If you can imagine a 243AI shortened to 48mm and a .600" neck.

I dont know if the case is based on the 308 with the shoulder set back and turned into a 30 Deg shoulder angle. The 308 has a 20deg shoulder.

I have made up a short 243AI using my custom 243AI reamer which has a .270" neck and a 40 deg shoulder.
I named it the 6x47FM.

I was designed for Hunter Benchrest. I changed my mind later and reamed my HBR rifle for the 25 Hunter which has a better expansion ratio. Both have a 46.5 gr H2O case volume.

Once this 6.5x48 brass comes available in mass, I can see it being necked up and down. Nothing else needs to be done to it.

In that respect the 6x47SM (Swiss Match) is in the same class and is the same as my own, except for shoulder angle.

Mac
Reading the posts on this forum and what I saw last week I can't vouch for improved Quality as yet. But maybe H&R is unloading their poor quality rifles in Canada where you can't ship them back. :roll:    

As far as the bores, triggers and chambers go I have no way of tellimg. I take your word for it.

Mac would you please split your writings up in paragraphs it is so much easier to read No offence

[Mac11700]

I went back and seperated it for you Fred...Hope that helps..

Mac

[218Bee]

Mac,

Just so's I understand (I'm a lil slow when I get out of work :lol: ), you leave .001-.0015 (depending on the particular rifle) gap between the shell holder and the die? So the longer (by the amount of barrel--->frame gap) case provides a better fit?

Rick

[Fred M]

Rick.
What Mac is saying if you have a 0.003" gap you need to set your die long by three thou, less a one thou clearance beween the cartridge head and the standing breech.

But not nessesarely three thou because the chamber and the die may have different tolerances. So you need to test the cases in the rifle to see how much space you need between the shell holder and the bottom of the die

[218Bee]

Got it Fred :agree: So raise and true up the die, size a case and check for fit in the chamber.

Thanks for the help,

Rick

[Mac11700]

Rick.
What Mac is saying if you have a 0.003" gap you need to set your die long by three thou, less a one thou clearance beween the cartridge head and the standing breech.

But not nessesarely three thou because the chamber and the die may have different tolerances. So you need to test the cases in the rifle to see how much space you need between the shell holder and the bottom of the die

Exactly....and remember..not all reloading dies are the same either.

Case in point...between my RCBS dies and my Forster dies in 25-06..If I follow the genaric instructions provided with the dies..I wind up setting the shoulder back .003" too far with the RCBS dies as compared to the Forster dies if I full lenght resize.So it pays to visually check the fit of your sized cases to your Handi chamber prior to resizing a batch of them..
 

Your frame to barrel gap will determine how you should set up your dies for proper sizing....If you have a excessive amount of gap..ie .0025" or larger..you should think seriously about placing a shim on the hinge pin and reducing this amount down to .002" or tighter..The tighter the fit and still allowing for it to open & close.. the better it will be....

Shimming is covered pretty well up in the FAQ's sticky at the top of the page by Quick and Fred..http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=26264

Mac