Grisly stopper????

[Redhawk1]

Lloyd Smale, I agree with you 100%. No argument here.  

[jeager106]

Lloyd you make a ton of good common sense!

[Lloyd Smale]

hell be careful or you guys will inflate my ego. I was better off a couple days ago when i was being called stupid :-D

[Camel 23]

Stupid!

[Camel 23]

Sorry, I had to! :-D  

[Wyatte]

There is obviously two camps here - and always will be. One is from the school of thought that absolutely no handgun is useful in a bear attack, and the other school chimes in just the opposite.  I find this interesting, because many who claim they come from the first line, that no handgun would work, state that they would carry one anyway when in bear country.  This begs the question then - why?  If it be no good, why bother with the weight and expense, if it's just of no use?  Just always been curious about this reasoning.   Whay do many guides, along with the standard big bore rifle, also go to the trouble of a handgun too?  wyatte

[Skeeterbaymac]

Mr. Wyatte:  While I am of the opinion that in Griz country one should have a rifle/shotgun I did and would carry a revolver. I am also of the opinion that a bear any bear (read Griz or Black) can be killed or possibly routed with a proper size handgun.  All that said I would rather not try (on Griz) if I didn't have to (read he will pick the fight not me). The Griz I have seen made me feel very small.  They are impressive to say the least.

  I know all the stuff that has been going around on this site about it can't be done or only a brain/spine shot will do it and you don't stand a chance hitting it.  My (read My again) opinion is that it can and has been done and I certainly would try it if I had to.  A revolver of 44 mag caliber or bigger/loaded properly can and will kill and/or route aggressive bears. I agree with Lloyd and Redhawk that bigger cal (when it comes to Griz) is better!

  When it comes to Griz will a handgun stop or route one all the time: No. Could you get hurt: Yes. Would it be better than nothing: Sure would.
 If you stay aware while in the bush and use common sense hopefully and chances are you will never have a problem.

  From what I can see on this site there are a number of folks that have hunted a good amount of bear and/or live with bear every day. While they may have a differance of opinion on a minor point or two, they usually agree on the big issue.  The problem with a person asking a question on here is trying to seperate the hay from the chaff. To many people (that give advise) get their opinions from reading books without ever seeing a bear or hunting just one or two.   I guess a guy is left to decide which camp is hay and which is chaff!

[jeager106]

Skeeterbaymac :
Everything posted on the internet, especially talk boards, should be taken with a grain of salt and is suspect unless written by a recognized authority.
Now think about it.
If a griz is on yer butt you are in deep doo-doo and your only hope of surviving a severe mauling is to stop the agressive behavior instantly.
That requires disrupting the central nervous system.
Remember in less than a heartbeat a large critter of any kind can snap your neck, severe an artery and generally ruin your whole day.
There is a huge difference between a killing shot and a stopping shot.
You may "kill" the bear but it may die 3.5 seconds after it has ripped your throat out.
That is a draw.
In that case you loose and it won't make much never mind that you took the bear with you now will it?
In the case of an animal attack it won't matter much what you shoot the bear with as long as it has the power required to bust it's brain or sever it's spine.
This would rule out the puny cailbers unfit for usch a task such as the .22 r.f., 25 auto, 38 spl, and so forth.
I would venture to say a .357 mag is a poor choice for such work.
To say that anything less than a .500 Smith is necessary is equally silly.
A .45 Colt loaded to petential, a .44 mag, would suffice just fine cause it won't matter much what the caliber it is as long as it's adequate to the task at hand.
Shooting the length of the bear is of little consequence if the bear bleeds to death while eating you.
Hence my diatribe about the difference between stopping and killing.
If the bear, or anything else, is about to chew on your precious self then stopping is what you want.
Killing the thing is of little interest at that moment.
Being able to shoot the length of the bear is meaningless.
There is a huge difference in tactics between hunting and defensive shooting and somehow people think carrying a .500 mag is some kind of insurance against an ugly mauling.
It certainly isn't.
It only makes one feel better and feelings aren't facts.

[Skeeterbaymac]

Mr. Jeager106:  I have thought about every thing you have said.    I do truely see your point, really I do!  I just did not and do not agree with all of it.   As you know I did say I would carry a rifle or shotgun.  But I have more than once carried just a pistol when I lived in Alaska, for various reasons.

  I am of the opinion that not all bear attacks are the same. Not everyone gets blind sided by a bear.  People have and many do see the bears that attack them, prior to them getting close or even charging.  A revolver on your hip while fishing or cutting wood may in fact route said bear prior to him closing in on you. I have noticed a lot of bears at 100 + yds.  I know that my expierances do not always jive with the books or other accounts of bear encounters.  I do not know what to say about that. I just know what I have had happen or seen.

  I have read your posts and I know you think all or most bear's sneak attack there victims.  I do not have that same opinion.  Bears sometimes  act toward humans the way they do toward other bears, when they are aggressive.  They sometimes will  try to impress you first by head movements or body movements and then charge, many times they bluff charge.  This is not allways the case but it is somthing that does happen a bit.

  I know folks like to use the if's (if this happened then what or if that happened then what)  I do not!  We could give each other scenerios all night. I will say that I have had a wounded black bear that was close, 15 yds and closing, turn due to a handgun strike. I have had others do the same.  Now I know and you do to that a black bear is not as determined as a Griz but a Griz can if hit bad enough turn as well. A heavy pistol bullet length wise in a bear does have an effect on them.

  Now for the sake of a scenerio I will say if he suprises you and  he jumps you, Yes you are in deep trouble. I would if able fire what I could where I could.  Would I die very possible will he die very possible. Will I die before he does very possible.  Will I still try yep.  

   If you ever come acrossed me in the woods and I have been mualed or worse by a bear. You will note several things about the crime scene.  All the marks on me will be on my front (read I did not run). I will have bear hair in what ever is left of my fingers.  You may find a peice of his ear clutched in my teeth where I bit him and you will I repete will find empties in my gun.

  Like I said I know this seems odd to you that I would think I have a chance with a pistol.  But  based on all I have done and seen I truely do think that I would stand a chance depending on the scenero. Heck in some sceneros I may stand even a maybe 50% chance.  Thats worth carring a pistol for.

  I would also like to say something about some of your other posts in which you say a person can not hit a charging bear with a pistol.  I have proved more than once I can hit a black bear that is moving toward me, with a pistol in the chest and that brain/spine shots are not needed to kill or route black bears. (Griz? I was never charged by a Griz.)  Black's yes.  Sorry but that is a fact and I have known others that have also.  

  Again I understand what your saying and I understand your theory but  I disagree with alot of it.  

[jeager106]

Skeeterbaymac

What an absolute PLEASURE to read your posts!
       
You sir, make a fine argument and do it in a manner that shows you as a gentleman of distinction and you are a credit to this discussion.
I mean that with the deepest of sincerety!
There is nothing wrong with disagreement at all and controversy is a good thing as I believe it stimulates thought.
Let me explain a few points that perhaps I didn't make very clear.
I don't think I said that a person could not hit a bear when the s.h.t.f. I was trying to point out that at bad breath distance with a charging animal one would have to brain the thing or interupt the spine to make an effective stopping shot.
I completely agree not all serious situations involving threatening animals are the same.
Sure a heavy bullet hitting a charging animal would have an effect, but I'm speaking only about very close "I'm about to get eaten" situations where a few seconds or even less could make a huge difference to a persons chances of survival.
In the case of a very close range encounter it would make little difference if you are armed with a .44 mag or .500 mag. A brain shot is about the only hope you would have and any .44 load would work as well as a .454, .460, .475, .500 and so on.
I guess what I'm saying is that carrying a big bore handgun or a HUGE bore handgun makes little effective difference in that kind of situation.
I am addressing a tactical survival scenereo not a hunting scenereo.
As an aside to all this rest assured I would still carry a handgun if hunting dargerous game if only for the 'feel good' effect.
Feeling better is o.k. as long as you are not lulled into a false sense of security.
I live in N.E. Ohio in a rare somewhat secluded area with no close neighbors.
Believe it or not I had a situation invovling a feral dog that was ready to pounce on my 5 year old last year.
It ended o.k but I was not armed. I never  considered the need to ever carry a gun on my own place.
How would have thunk it would ever be necessary?
Now however I never leave the yard without at least a .357 on my person.
If it happend once it could happen again.
You make some very good points in a very fine fashion!

[Lloyd Smale]

camel23 your one of the few people that can get away with calling me stupid and just puting a smile on my face. Jagaer one thing in your post i disagree with. Ive never shot a charging bear of anykind but have shot my share of blacks and a few good sized ones. I think though from experience that if a bear was comming at me a shot that went lenghtwise through him would do alot more toward discouraging him from persueing me further then a shot that didnt. It will at least make him alot more sick alot quicker. Whether or not it would save your bacon i dont know. Ive shot one bear and a couple hogs in the chest and had bullets exit the back and in all three cases the animal dropped to a dog like sitting posistion emeaditly and died within seconds. Granted these werent angry animals that wanted my but. But a cast bullet putting a wound cavity that long through an animal gets there attention. No doubt if your looking for instant paralizing kills the brain is about it. Even the spine is no guarantee. Ive seen spine shot animals drag there back ends accross the ground at a pretty good clip before too. Also id never argue against carrying a handgun in bear country or anywhere as far as that goes. I dont leave the house much without something on my hip except for work where its not allowed. It may not take care of every situation perfectly but its handy and at least conforting to know you have it.

[Redhawk1]

Lloyd Smale, another good post. Wow!!! it took 5 pages to get most on the same page.  :-D  

[Mikey]

OK folk - after five pages of literal 'what ifs', I think it is time to put this Grizzly Stopper to bed.

There has been a lot of advice and a lot of, ummmm, 'thought' on this topic and five pages is about enough.  

Let's call this one quits.  However, the first one of the posters on this thread who actually does stop a Grizzly with a pistol has my full consent to let us know what happened.  But, if the Grizzly uses your pepper spray to flavor his meal ya'll kin spare us the details.  LOLOL.

Fellas - thanks for keeping this as much above board and spite free as it has been but let's tuck it in for a nap now.  Thanks.  Mikey.

[slink]

lots of cheap milsurp practice ammo. only a brain shot, or a luck hit to spine or shoulder will stop a charge. I'd level the rifle at any bear I saw within 200 yds, and if they didn't immediately flee at the sight of me, I'd start shooting at their head, until the 10-20 rd mag was empty.

A 9mm is a better choice than a .454, actually, cause you get more tries at the brain, in the last 20 ft, 1/2 second of his charge, where you MIGHT be able to hit a moving 6" circle, with a pistol.  If you are getting mauled, shooting the critter lots of times in the guts is not nearly as good an answer as shoving the muzzle up against his temple, chin, or eye socket and firing once.

Deaths from unprovoked bear attacks are LESS common than being hit by lightning, or dying from insect stings.  It's a tired old bs topic for gun forums, perpetuated by people who want to feel good about their .44, .454, .460, .480, etc, etc, etc and the money that they wasted on it.

[corbanzo]

I'd level the rifle at any bear I saw within 200 yds, and if they didn't immediately flee at the sight of me, I'd start shooting at their head, until the 10-20 rd mag was empty.

A 9mm is a better choice than a .454, actually, cause you get more tries at the brain

Sorry Mikey, but I have to.

Slink, I hope you never go in bear country, especially where I live.  That comment is the most disgusting thing I've ever heard in my life.  200 yards is a loooooooong loooooong way.  I would of killed almost every bear I've seen in my life if that was the case.  The only reason to shoot at a bear that you are not hunting is if you are in IMMEDIATE danger, as in 20 yards or less, with the bear coming for you.  Shooting semi-autos at bears at 200yards because you are "scared" is like the salem witch hunts, stuff dieing for absolutely no reason.  And at 200 yards, they don't usually flee, that is a pretty comfortable distance.  Usually, if you are moving around, they will just meander off, in no hurry.  If you aren't doing much, they will go about their business, maybe watch you for a while.  We routinely have bears that come up over the ridge on the russian river when we are fishing, and sit and watch for a few minutes before they leave.  That's about 40-60 yards, and no problem.  We actually like when the blackies come down, cause if they high tail it, we know something bigger is on the way.

Also, you need to look at the size of a brown bears skull, it is pretty rediculous.  If you think you are going to get through a skull that thick with a 9mm, you are kidding yourself.  Maybe from the side at a weak point (which isn't really weak, just not MASSIVELY thick), if you were lucky.  Trying to shoot a bear through the skull with a full frontal charge, and break through to the brain with a low-medium power pistol is for the most part, physically impossible.  It's more likely to ricochet and hurt you instead.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Like a charging grizzly, this thread is hard to kill! :-D

Jim

[slink]

that means he can cover  600 ft in 12 seconds. 12 seconds is not much time in which to get additional good hits on the head, and only the head hit is likely to stop him. You can wait til he's inside 20 yds if you want, but I sure wouldn't. He can cover that space in 1.5 seconds. There's lots of bears, only one of me.  If they want to keep on living, they should FLEE at the sight or sound of humans. I DID say that I'd shoot AFTER they noticed me and did not flee, but of course, nobody can read anymore, so you just ASSUMED that I meant shoot at the mere SIGHT of any bear, whether he spotted me or not.

[Mikey]

Gentlemen - let's not close this thread badly.  Mikey.

[corbanzo]

I'd level the rifle at any bear I saw within 200 yds, and if they didn't immediately flee at the sight of me, I'd start shooting at their head, until the 10-20 rd mag was empty.

That is what you said.  You didnt say anything about a charge, I did read.  You said, if he didn't run away, you shoot.  That's completely rediculous, no matter how you look at it.  A bear won't charge you from 200 yards.  You need to live with them and see how they act before you start making assumptions.