bill Jordan's fast draw.

[slink]

Bill would tell the audience that he could draw and beat the reaction time of a man holding a gun on him. He'd get a volunteer, hand him an SA revolver, full of primer-only rds. He'd have the guy cock it and point it at Bill.  Bill wore a M19 in a right handed exhibition rig. He'd talk to the guy, get him distracted, holding the microphone in his RIGHT hand.

What the volunteer did not know was that Bill had a .38 snub in his LEFT rear pocket, butt exposed for a draw.  With the guy focused on his RIGHT hand, Bill would draw the snubby left handed, and USUALLY fire all five shots at the startled man before he fired the SA revolver, if he managed to fire it at ALL, that is. :-) Distraction and surprise have won many a gunfight.

[Patriot_1776]

Hmmmm....trouble is the demonstrator was complacent.  Often times during a hold up, rape, mugging or robbery, the criminal wants YOU to shut up, keep your hands where he can see them, and do what HE says to do.  It would be folly to assume the BG is shy of cutting you down should you resist in the least.  Bill Jordan's idea of talking the BG to the point of distraction is purely hypothetical, unrealistic, and not what happens in real life.  What on earth would Billy be doing and talkin' about during a robbery in the street with a mic in his right hand, whilst sneaking his left into his pocket for the 38 snubby?  Comparing this situation in regards to self defense is pure blather.

What the volunteer did not know was that Bill had a .38 snub in his LEFT rear pocket, butt exposed for a draw.

 

Come on, CCW means just that: Carry Concealed Weapon!!!  

 
-Patriot

[corbanzo]

I would like to see him, against me, with rubber bullets.  I'm no super fast draw, im not bad, but not super fast.  I have the gun cocked, he pulls his.  Unlike the normal audience member, I pay attention, I'm aiming.  He draws, does he hit me doing it that fast?  I guarantee he's gonna have some rubber sting on him.

[jimster]

Not to get involved in whether we can drop the hammer on someone before they can draw and shoot...I'm sure most on here are very famliar with firearms and all practiced up, and would be more than ready to take this challenge...
but a note on Bill Jorden....
I used to watch him do some absolutetly amazing things on film when I was very young, could not believe a guy could draw and shoot that fast, and hit the target each time...it was really something to watch.
And the point he might have been trying to make is...that action is faster than reaction. We have a police officer explain this to us in a class once.
He also gave a dummy gun to people in the class, with the hammer back and pointed at him, he would stand right in front of people and say when I move just shoot me. Easy enough? Well, nobody could actually shoot him that day, sure the hammer would drop, but he would swat the gun to one side and when that hammer dropped, the barrel would be pointed over his shoulder...a miss. The point was just to show us, don't let anyone get that close, not ever...because their action will be faster than your reaction. Good point...maybe Bill Jorden was kind of showing how that works.
And as far as his expertise, he was a Border Cop for a long time, I'm sure he was pretty street wise on what to do in real life situations, which would be different than any exhibitions he put on in his older years.
Bill Jorden was one heck of a cop, who had seen it all in his day, and probably one of the best there was with a Smith double action.
He will be remembered for many years to come.

At any rate, if I were pointing a gun at someone with the hammer back, I'd probably drop the hammer before he moved anyways, seeing as how I would not unholster my gun unless I already made up my mind to kill someone, and when that gun comes out, nothing short of the BG dropping to the ground and giving up in a flash would keep it from happening....he better be real fast at giving up, or it will be too late.
That would be a real life situation for me.
I just figure if my gun comes out, my mond is already made up, or it's not coming out....but once it does...I don't plan on waiting for a BG to move first.

I think the point was, re-action is slower than the first action....a good point to be made, and one I happen to agree with.

[slink]

After Bill had made his point with the .38 snub, he'd tell the guy, "Ok, now we're going to do it like you thought", and straight up BEAT the guy's reaction time with his draw. No Bs. No, you would not hit him with your rubber bullet. Your reaction time is .20 second or slower, and Bill's draw and hit, up close, was like .12 second.

[Questor]

Just goes to show you that when a guy hands you a loaded gun in such a demonstration, just fire all your rounds immediately and forget you're in a demonstration.

[jimster]

LOL!!!!

Exactly what I would do too Questor....I'd drop the hammer before he moved just to prove a point....and say...sorry, can't let you get that close to me....
hahahahahahaha

Good one Questor! We are on the same page.

[Syncerus]

I've also heard that Bill Jorden used to shoot aspirins in his fast draw exhibitions...

He wasn't just fast.

Syncerus

[Sir Knight]

Not to get involved in whether we can drop the hammer on someone before they can draw and shoot...I'm sure most on here are very famliar with firearms and all practiced up, and would be more than ready to take this challenge...
but a note on Bill Jorden....
I used to watch him do some absolutetly amazing things on film when I was very young, could not believe a guy could draw and shoot that fast, and hit the target each time...it was really something to watch.
And the point he might have been trying to make is...that action is faster than reaction. We have a police officer explain this to us in a class once.
He also gave a dummy gun to people in the class, with the hammer back and pointed at him, he would stand right in front of people and say when I move just shoot me. Easy enough? Well, nobody could actually shoot him that day, sure the hammer would drop, but he would swat the gun to one side and when that hammer dropped, the barrel would be pointed over his shoulder...a miss. The point was just to show us, don't let anyone get that close, not ever...because their action will be faster than your reaction. Good point...maybe Bill Jorden was kind of showing how that works.
And as far as his expertise, he was a Border Cop for a long time, I'm sure he was pretty street wise on what to do in real life situations, which would be different than any exhibitions he put on in his older years.
Bill Jorden was one heck of a cop, who had seen it all in his day, and probably one of the best there was with a Smith double action.
He will be remembered for many years to come.

At any rate, if I were pointing a gun at someone with the hammer back, I'd probably drop the hammer before he moved anyways, seeing as how I would not unholster my gun unless I already made up my mind to kill someone, and when that gun comes out, nothing short of the BG dropping to the ground and giving up in a flash would keep it from happening....he better be real fast at giving up, or it will be too late.
That would be a real life situation for me.
I just figure if my gun comes out, my mond is already made up, or it's not coming out....but once it does...I don't plan on waiting for a BG to move first.

I think the point was, re-action is slower than the first action....a good point to be made, and one I happen to agree with.

This action VS reaction time brings up an interesting problem which I have always thought about ...

You hear a strange noise downstairs in the middle of the night and you grab your gun and go investigate. You see a figure lurking in the shadows. You point your gun at him and tell him to freeze since it would be unlawful to shoot him in the back and it is also prudent to first identify your target before you pull the trigger.

Anyway, you yell freeze or halt or whatever and he suddenly spins around and empties his gun into you before you even have a chance to react.

How should one handle a situation like this?

And before anyone says not to go downstairs and to call the police instead, I've got stuff falling out of the pantry and onto the floor all of the time. A few weeks ago, the garage door blew open in the middle of the night because it was extremely windy and it wasn't latched properly. I'm not going to call the police everytime something falls out of the pantry because after a few false alarms, they are not going to take me seriously.

[jimster]

you bring up a good point about...yelling freeze, or halt...
I am of the opinion also that shouting FREEZE to someone in your house late at night could very well make him turn and shoot in your direction in a flash. Might not turn out so good.
So I guess I have my own little rules about hearing a noise and investigating...for one thing if there is family in the house, depending where they are, this has a lot to do with if I need to investigate or not.
I'll be getting the family into one place first IF possible. If not possible, I have to investigate if a family member is seperated from us.
Sneaking aorund my own house, or toward a nosie can be pretty risky in itself....people get training for this.
If all alone, I would probably investigate, and be careful as possible.
I doubt I would yell Freeze right off the bat if someone was dinking around in the house, don't have good feelings about doing that.
Identify first...observe if possible....then I'd make a decision what to do if this intruder still did not know I was watching.....

Safest thing to do I would imagine if there was a wife or child with me, is to all be together and secure the perimeter of where we are....if intruder comes through that door, I have the first action, he is all done.
Main goal, is keep my family safe, not save the stereo or TV.

I'm not sure what the experts say about yelling freeze to someone in your house...but it doesn't sound so hot to me...for the reasons you metioned. I'd rather he didn't know I was watching him, and leave it that way for a bit, gives me a chance to identify, see what he has in his hands, his age, lots of things can come together if I catch someone lurking before they see me.

Hey good question Sir Knight, I'm no expert though...but common sense tells me not to yell freeze or halt if I have time to observe for a bit first.

[ShootnStr8]

Safest thing to do I would imagine if there was a wife or child with me, is to all be together and secure the perimeter of where we are....if intruder comes through that door, I have the first action, he is all done.
Main goal, is keep my family safe, not save the stereo or TV.

Jimster, I'm with you:  Keep the family safe by securing the perimeter until the authorities arrive.  

Blessings!

ShootnStr8

[Old Griz]

You hear a strange noise downstairs in the middle of the night and you grab your gun and go investigate. You see a figure lurking in the shadows. You point your gun at him and tell him to freeze since it would be unlawful to shoot him in the back and it is also prudent to first identify your target before you pull the trigger.

:cb2: This might differ from state to state. If it's dark you may not be able to tell which way he is facing. And our DA told us in our liability class, if someone breaks into your house at night, he knows you are at home, and he doesn't care if he does you bodily harm. So his response was, "Bang, bang, bang. Three times to the chest." Didn't say anything about shouting, "Freeze" first.

Of course, do make sure it ain't Grandma before ya start blastin'.

(Guess I haven't figgured out how to do that little quote thingie yet.)

[williamlayton]

Really, the only thing to determine to do is identify what you are shooting first.
Freeze is to be detrmined by the first shot and I would think that in such a situation, in the state you live, IF the DA is going to investigate for negligence or any such law, I want to be the onliest one to testify.
Blessings

[papajohn428]

Ayoob's take on this is to identify the target as clearly as possible.  Might be your son brought home a drunk friend, who's trying to find the bathroom.  Or it might be a miscreant who's planning a night of murder and rape.  But if a weapon is visible, there's nothing dumber than alerting him to your presence and location.  Neutralize the threat, bang bang bang, until it isn't one anymore.  And be aware of where those bullets are going to go if you miss or they exit!

Papajohn