Question for slink

[Patriot_1776]

Are you familiar with the username of Trank that was on this website about a year ago?  Here is a direct quote from one of his posts:  

believe me, a 9mm 90 gr gr jhp at 1700 fps beats the hell out of a 230gr jhp .45 at 850 fps.

That was from May of last year.  I kept a few excerpts of his posts.  :wink:  

Here's a couple more:

There's only ones like the .45, which a lot of men have told a lot of LIES about, that's all.

June 7, 2005

I've shot enough animals with .38 snubs to know that with controlable loads, it might as well be a .22lr, for all the "effectiveness" that it has.

 June 26, 2005


-Patriot

[slink]

Anyone who takes the trouble to shoot some critters with ccw type handguns and loads will know that what I say is the facts of the matter. In fact, you've got a guy around here who posted that .45 ball hits like a .22 rifle, I saw it recently.  Ask him about it.  90 grs at 1700 fps is a carbine load in 9x19, or a 9x23 Winchester load in a handgun. It's a bit much in a 9x19 pistol.  Especially one without a fully supported barrel.

[Questor]

I've used the 45acp on ground hogs and I prefer high velocity 22LR to the 45. The 22 simply stops and kills the animal quicker.

[Patriot_1776]

So what you are saying is that 45 ball ammo is no good for defense, either against rabid critters, or armed/enraged assailants.  That has been known for quite a while.  But there are many more undocumented reports of the 45 being among the most effective in the hands of a trained user when using hollowpoint bullets.  My bullet of choice out of the 45 would be a 230gr. Speer GD HP running at a steady 850fps.  I personally have no problem with the recoil.  I can come from a holstered position, launch rounds as fast as I can squeeze them from my 45, and still get "A" grade hits at most if not all normal/justifiable defense ranges with full power 230gr loads.  

Number two, I don't think ammo/CCW pistol tests on simple game animals present reasonable facts to base the entire effectiveness of a defense tool.  Reason being that game animals or varmints don't have the phsycological capacity to realize what has happened to them.  An armed assailant, namely a human being, does have the capacity to realize he has been shot, is possibly dying, or will die if he continues the attack.  The whole principle of defense is to assume control either by negotiation or by force.  Therefore, phsycological manipulation can play a major role in whether the victim becomes the neighborhood hero, or tomorrow's statistic.  You can talk to a wild animal all you possibly can, but it still won't understand a word your saying like another human being would...unless they don't understand the english language.


-Patriot

[slink]

You can talk to him with a .22lr in your hand, too, ya know. He'll be just as scared of getting shot with it as with the .45.  The lies told about the .45 were about .45 ball ammo, and they remain lies, just as I said. As fast as you can get hits means nothing much. That could easily be twice as slow as a really good shooter can get them.  You don't carry the full size and wt gov't model concealed. nobody does. They just lie about that, too.  The 850 fps  230 gr jhp's don't expand well in flesh, if at all. It takes at least  1000 fps for reliable expansion with a .45, and 1100 fps is a lot more like it, unless you use hydroshoks or a non-copper jacket. Those will expand ok at about 900 fps, at least some of the time.

Without an electronic shooting timer, guys just THINK that they're "fast", that's all.  Then they go to the matches, see the top hands hitting faster at 50 yds than they can do at  5 yds, and they usually just crawl off whining about it. :-)

The alloy framed compact variants of the 1911, which is what guys DO carry, or a M21 Glock, etc, are nowhere near as easy to control in rapidfire as a GM, with real ammo in them.

[Patriot_1776]

As fast as you can get hits means nothing much.

I thought in your posts you were recommending the 9mm poweRball because of massive power, and ease of control...control meaning less recoil impulse to overcome before the next round can be fired.  Rapid accurate fire can be the deciding factor in a gun fight.  I'm sorry I forgot to say, but we do utilize a competition timer during the pistol matches.  I wouldn't say what I said without proper verification of my statements.  My pistol is not a GM, I use a stock Sig P220 ST, a stock S&W 686 4"bbl 357, and the shotgun is a simple stock Mossy 590 w/side saddle and sling.  I have had no trigger jobs, nor use special optical sights, and no recoil compensators.

We all understand that 45 ball, 9mm ball, and other ball ammo is not the premier choice for defense.  

The speed at which I shoot is nowhere less than 1 round per second.  We're talking way faster, and I have competed man to man with some very experienced shooters.  Some of which have had LE duty; that is not to say they are perfect shooters.  But the ability to maintain proper control, placing rounds where they need to go as fast as they are needed is all that can be done under certain circumstances.

As for the GD HP not expanding well, I have heard otherwise.  The fact is bullets are not just simple lead and copper, while hoping for the best.  We have principles called technology.  We can now design bullets to perform under certain parameters.  The 45 caliber GD HP has a big mouth for a reason.  The cavity and jacket are fluted on the inside, to promote easier and uniform expansion.  The size of the mouth is because of the lower velocites encountered with the 45.  More fluid/flesh can fill that cavity, and because of its size, it opens more readily.  That is why 9mm GD HP have smaller cavities, because of the higher velocities encountered.  

I can talk to the BG with whatever I feel comfortable with: my selection would either be a 45, or a 357 mag.  I don't care whether he would be just as scared with a 22lr as with a 50 AE.  The fact is he doesn't (nor should) know how much I practice with tthem.  That is for me to know, and decide, should it be necessary to protect innocent life.  I must say, you are a fun guy to talk with :grin:


-Patriot

[S.S.]

Cruise the other forums reading this guys posts (Slink)
it is very intertaining     in one He even said that "JIM CIRILLO (NYC stakeout squad fame) told him" this and that.. Guess they're buddies or something.

[Camel 23]

Yup, there sure are a lot of experts on the internet these days.  I've never had to shoot a bad guy.