MAXIMUM for self defense

[corbanzo]

We always see posts on the minimum for defense against humans, dogs, bears, rocks, etc.  I was wondering, what you fellas thought would be the maximum power that would be responsible self defense on humans, if any.  I'm talking about the difference between stopping an attacker in their tracks, and stopping them from having an open casket funeral.

[Sir Knight]

I could very well be wrong but I don't think that you can have a maximum for self defense when it comes to handguns. A .22 short must instantly stop and kill an attacker in one particular case while a .44mag might not be enough in another case. It all depends on shot placement and the mental & physical condition of the attacker.

[Mikey]

Corbanzo - there are only a couple of choices here really, when you speak to 'maximums':  one choice is any of the calibers in the 357 mag/357 Sig category that take a 125 gn bullet at 1400+'/sec, a proven load.  That includes the 357 mag, 357 Sig, and 9x23mm/38 Super.  The other choice is the 45 acp.  Most other heavy loads in the 357, 41, 10mm, 44 mag/ Spl, etc., have a tendency to shoot through and may hit others. JMHO.  Mikey.

[PA-Joe]

If you are defending yourself I don't think you want the target walking away. It's DOA! The issue would be over penetration putting PQ Public at risk or reckless shooting that puts third-parties at risk.

[slink]

Given a 70 gr prefrag at 2300 fps, it's got 800 ft lbs of power, yet no worse recoil than .45 ACP ball ammo, so I can still get repeat hits under .20 second. Misses and poor hits are the rule in combat, not the exception, so I'm not using anything that slows down my repeat hits.  I'm also not going to lug around anything that's over 7.5" long or over 30 ozs, loaded. I use a navel carry, IWB, and I can't sit down comfortably with anything longer than that, nor go all day with more wt than that hanging on my belt.  As it is, I have to severely round off the corners of the slide and so on, for sitdown comfort. I almost always just go with the pocket rig and gun.

[S.S.]

To me, anything that passes through would really be too much.
In a self defense situation you want to pass as much of the bullets energy to the target as possible,  If the projectile passes through it is no longer doing damage. An exit wound is great in hunting simply for the creation of a better blood trail to follow. Not really necessary in self defense against a human. There is however no real happy medium here as far as calibers go. The closest I have seen to a middle of the penetration to energy road
would probably be the .40 S&W "Not too fast, Not too small".

[Dusty Miller]

We're beating the same old dead horse here, only from the other side.  Hey, just take some time to think about how much felon you are likely to have to stop and then match your gun and load to that.  If the guy who attacks you is some decreped old codger (much like myself!) who will go down with the first thing that hits him then a snubby .22 loaded with shorts is just the ticket!  IF, on the other hand your assailant is 6' 12", 275lb Louie Packaload who just escaped from the local state prison and has a fresh load of PCP, heroine, or meth (or some combination of the three) pumped into his arm then perhaps you'll be wanting something with a bit more WHALLOP and to heck with "over penetration".  To each his own but I tend to error on the side of (my) safety.

[Dusty Miller]

Deleted repeat.

[slink]

so controlability of the load is very important. So is lightwt and compactness of the gun, so you'll HAVE it when you need it. That .44 aint with you much, and we all know that guys lie about carrying even a full size and wt 1911. About the most anyone ever carries, on a regular basis, is an alloy framed compact of some sort. Such guns have real control problems with heavy recoiling loads.

About all anyone can get decent repeat hit times with (ie, .20 second or faster) in a lw, compact pistol, is .45 ball.  230 grs at 800 fps from an Alloy Commander, for 184 recoil factor. Take the bullet wt in grains, multiply it times the velocity in fps, and toss out the irrelevant zeros.  A 115 gr 9mm, at 1300 fps from a 4" barrel ( a pretty high-pressure load, actually) has  a 150 recoil-factor.

A 60 gr bullet, at 2300 fps in a 4" 9x23 Winchester, has a recoil-factor of 138. So that is the way to go for maximum effect, with maximum control of the recoil.  Such a load has 700 ft lbs of power, and it has the rifle-softpoint's abilty to tear up fragile chest organs with just its temporary cavity.  If the bullet is a 3 segmented prefrag, like the QuikShok, that ability to damage organs with the temp cavity is enhanced. This is true because the multiple wound tracks weaken the organs, making them less able to withstand the tearing action of the temporary cavity. Swap out the mag and the barrel, and the 9x23 can fire 9x19 ammo for practice.

Such ammo and bullets also slice thru Kevlar armor like so much cheese. A nice side-benefit, but one which keeps any major manufacturer from offering such bullets-ammo. They are scared of offending the cops.

[Skeeterbaymac]

Mr. Corbanzo:  To answer your question.  I guess the 44 mag is my max.

I carry a single action all day every day.  I get up, it goes on and when I go to bed it comes off. It's on right now! The only time I stray from this is, if I am going to a large town or out to dinner with family. Then I carry the 45 auto.  I am working on the farm and on and off tractors and equip all day and the 44 mag stays right with me. I end up using it for everything, Coyotes, chucks you name it I have shot at it.  I guess if the situation needed, it would be used to defend myself as well.   It would depend on the situation at the time, but I feel the SA in 44 mag can hold it's own if needed. What ever I happend to have I am sure I would use!  

I guess if I carried a 454 like you then that would be my max.  Heck I think I am armed just right when I have a 45-70 or 45-90 in my hands.  Bet they would work real well on fleeing vehicle shots too! Although it's tough to beat the old grand for that!  :lol:

[Skeeterbaymac]

Oh yea and just so you know Mr. Slink, some of us can walk around with a heavy gun on our hip.  Mr. Corbanzo looks like he can handle a couple of pounds on his hip. I weigh 300+  So the extra couple of pounds that old Ruger weighs. It doesn't really make much of a differance on me. I eat more weight in eggs in the morning than that gun weighs!  

[Sir Knight]

About all anyone can get decent repeat hit times with (ie, .20 second or faster) in a lw, compact pistol, is .45 ball.  230 grs at 800 fps from an Alloy Commander, for 184 recoil factor. Take the bullet wt in grains, multiply it times the velocity in fps, and toss out the irrelevant zeros.  A 115 gr 9mm, at 1300 fps from a 4" barrel ( a pretty high-pressure load, actually) has  a 150 recoil-factor.

All of these calculations are overlooking one important factor -- the weight of the gun. I can shoot the exact same ammo out of my S&W 686 and my S&W 342 -- out of the 686 I hardly feel the recoil but out of the 342, the exact same ammo is downright painful.

Without factroring in the weight of the gun into your formulas, all of your numbers are pretty meaningless.