Author Topic: Straight wall case VS. Shouldered/bottlenec (Read 544 times)

BRL · « **on:** May 01, 2006, 05:11:59 PM »

I am having a hard time deciding a next step to take...

I have some experience loading straight wall handgun calibers (.45ACP and .44mag) and have fun doing so. I am a little apprehensive to buy a press and rifle dies and start loading for bottleneck rifle cases. I am under the impression that it is more difficult due to things like case trimming, neck sizing, etc. Right now I have a Dillion Square Deal B progressive press and think that it is very easy to use. I simply load each stage and work the handle over and over. I hear a lot of rifle loaders talk about case lube, overall length of case, different measurements and the other things I mentioned.

How many more steps are there for rifle cartridges? How safe/effective is neck sizing only? How manditory are the extra steps to load rifle cartridges, if any?

I am trying to decide if I should reload my current deer rifles in .243, 7mm-08 and .30-06, or buy a rifle in .44 mag for deer/hog hunting. My main reason to reload would be to make reduced loads for the range but would also be effective on deer/hogs.

Thank you!

CyberSniper · « **Reply #1 on:** May 01, 2006, 05:56:02 PM »

Loading bottle necked cartridges is a bit different from loading the
pistol rounds for sure. One main thing is that tungstun carbide size
dies are not normally used for bottle necked cases. This is why you
have to use a case lube when you size them. The size dies are plain
steel. Also, bottle necked cases will tend to stretch some when resized.
How much is a variable. Depends on the caliber, how heavy they are
loaded, whether or not you use something like graphite to help
lubricate inside the necks before sizing, etc.
Having said all of that, straight cases can and do stretch some also.

Several things to consider here. First, you probably don't shoot as
many rifle rounds ( bottle necked cases ) as you do pistol rounds. If this is so, then the extra steps needed to load the rifle rounds are not such a big deal.( Mass production and speed not needed as much. )
On the other hand, if you are satisfied with the accuracy of the factory rifle rounds,and if cost savings are not a factor, then reloading of rifle rounds may not be worth you trouble.

As for neck sizing, this can be ok as long as you are using the ammo
in a bolt action. ( And only in the same gun ) Pumps, lever guns, and semi-autos would probably need their cases full length resized. After a few uses though, you might still need to fully resize the cases. If not, they may well become difficult to chamber after a few firings.

Loading pistol cases, and using tungstun carbide size dies can
spoil a person over time, so to speak. Truthfully, it is a little
faster and easier than loading bottle necked rifle cases.

Even so, having to do a few extra things when working with bottle necked
rifle cases can still be a rewarding pass time.
You are your own quality control. Time spent on case preperation
pays off down range.

BRL · « **Reply #2 on:** May 02, 2006, 09:34:17 AM »

Great response Cyber, thanks.

Does once fired brass and new brass come correctly sized? Would I be able to load small amounts with a hand press (or something similar) using this brass?

My goal is to load really light loads so I can shoot more at the range but would still be effective for hunting. I am trying to go the minimalist approach with hunting. The lightest possible bullet/load to effectively take deer. Say my 7mm-08 with a 120grain bullet at maybe 2,600 fps. (for an example). My 7mm-08 is a lever action.

Thanks again.

CyberSniper · « **Reply #3 on:** May 03, 2006, 02:30:40 AM »

Do not assume new brass is ready to load without sizing it first.
New brass often times have necks that are dinged, and they need
to be sized for proper grip of the bullet.

The use of a case mouth chamfering tool to knock off the square
edges of the case mouth will also help prevent shaving bullet jacket
and ease bullet seating also.

Once fired brass even less chance of being loadable without sizing first.
Hand press...you mean something like a Lee Loader ?
And since you have a lever action, neck sizing only may not work too well.

ron haralson · « **Reply #4 on:** May 03, 2006, 04:49:53 AM »

You can reload any amount of ammunition for the calibres mentioned on a hand press. Also, if you are using low pressure loads, case stretching is not much of a factor, especially if you nnneck size only. Lee's collet dies are cheap and do it well and you can buy just the neck sizing die not the set.

Good luck

Grumulkin · « **Reply #5 on:** May 03, 2006, 09:16:42 AM »

I also like Lee Collet dies but they're not the thing to use if reloading for an autoloader, pump or lever action weapon. I use a simple hand press, have reloaded thousands of rounds and have never felt the need for a turret or progressive press.

I've heard all the warnings to size and trim new brass. Thus far, I have never sized or trimmed new brass and have never had a problem with it.

qajaq59 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 03, 2006, 10:31:16 AM »

If you enjoy loading for the hand guns you will likely enjoy the rifle cases as well because while you will do less of them, but it's very likely you will do them considerably better. Half the fun of rifle cartridges is to see just how good you can get at loading them. It really grows on you after a while.
However, if your hand gun loading is just an unpleasant, but necessary chore, I wouldn't bother with the rifle loading as it has a few more steps.

CyberSniper · « **Reply #7 on:** May 03, 2006, 03:23:13 PM »

New brass...I ran into a situation where I skipped sizing new
Winchester .30-06 brass, and just loaded it.
Some of the rounds would not chamber.
As luck would have it, I ran into a bolt action with
a very tight chamber.
And again, you have a lever action...

Anyway, it seems there is a disagreement here as to whether or
not the collet dies will be ok. If they don't cost much, then you
might consider trying that method first. If they work, good deal.
If not, you can always go get a regular press after that.

qajaq59 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 03, 2006, 11:35:35 PM »

I didn't used to size and trim new brass, but the last few batches I bought were dented at the neck, the cases were not even at the mouth, and they had burrs on them that looked like someone had cut them off with a hack saw. So rather then starting out with lousy brass I just run them all through the sizer and trimmer. And since they are clean and new it only takes a short while to bring them up to par.
Is it absolutely necessary? I doubt it, but for the time involved it is easier then having a problem on the firing line. That is just too aggravating for me.

BRL · « **Reply #9 on:** May 04, 2006, 05:36:04 AM »

Thanks guys for all the useful information. I'm sure it does depend on the condition of the brass you start with. I am going to start looking at presses and all the options. I have a dillon for my handgun loading and like that press very much but don't really hear about people talking about their rifle presses. I'll look at the top 3 and see what I come up with.

Thanks again.

JBMauser · « **Reply #10 on:** May 04, 2006, 05:09:32 PM »

BLr, I am curious, why this minamalist thing for hunting. I load down because all I erver kill is paper but hunting has responsibility as well as a goal of one shot kill. Kills are as much about placement as hydrostatic shock. which is the result of the transfer of energy not to mention bullet expansion to cause trama and tissue damage. . I just do not understand. I know you can kill a deer with a .22LR but it is not leagal to do so becuase on a good day with a good shot you can still just injur or cripple an animal. I understand primitive but I do not understand minimalist. please explain. JB

CyberSniper · « **Reply #11 on:** May 04, 2006, 05:35:01 PM »

He's talking about a 120 grain bullet at 2,600 feet per second in his 7mm-08.
This is right in there with 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser loads, as
seen in the Lyman # 48 manual. I think this load will do the job on deer.

Also, consider the typical 20 inch .30-30 barrel won't give you much
more than 2,300 feet per second with a 150 grain bullet....seems to
kill deer also.

Reduced recoil might also aid that bullet placement you mentioned...

BRL · « **Reply #12 on:** May 05, 2006, 03:24:17 AM »

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I want a reduced recoil load to shoot often (and more than just the typical 10 or 20 rounds) at the range and that will work in a hunting situation. Not a minimal caliber, minimal load. A medium caliber with a reduced load. I did say "minimalist approach" in my first post, maybe that was the wrong term to use or misleading to what I meant. Sorry.

The 7mm-08 load mentioned is sufficient for deer, I think; as well as a mild load in my .30-06...maybe one that mimicks the .30-30 or a little more. I do intend to keep in mind that if I create a load to mimick such a round to keep my shots at a range that is suitable to that round, say 150 yards. I could even have the second round in the magazine be a full load, just in case. However, I am very careful with my ranges and shot placement. If I have any shred of doubt, I won't take a shot. I am after clean humane kills as well.

Thank you.

CyberSniper · « **Reply #13 on:** May 05, 2006, 03:53:49 AM »

Keep in mind that two different loads probably won't shoot to
the same point of impact. Also, as range increases, the difference
of impact points will also increase.
I don't think you'll have any trouble going with Plan A.