Elk loads; fact or fiction???

[DakotaElkSlayer]

On here when people discuss whitetail loads, you often hear them say that a 250gr  hard cast slug at 900fps or so, will go through a whitetail from end to end.
  When the subject of elk hunting comes up, suddenly you have to be shooting at least 300gr. cast bullets and pushing them at max loads...
  Would someone explain to me why pushing a bullet through 4.5 feet of deer is so much easier than the 3 feet of elk needed to punch through the lungs?

Jim

[rnr]

It's not so much how much meat you're going thru, but there are other factors.  Hydrolic shock is important in putting an animal down.  
I'd also say that whitetail are easier to put down than an elk.
What else?....  from the hides I've seen, I'd say that elk have a thicker skin to go thru.

I don't know, seems like you're trying to discuss something that's really obvious.

[Questor]

I think it's because 300 grain bullets are a fad today. Read back through 20 years of handgun hunting literature and here are plenty of accounts where the 240 grain 44 magnum at 1300fps muzzle velocity passed through bull elk completely.  I believe the important thing is to use a bullet that is hard and will not expand (much).  

A really good 300 grain bullet will penetrate an amazing distance, though. So if you want to be absolutely sure of penetration, you can't go wrong with a correctly hardened 300 grain bullet, like the ones made by Buffalo Bore.

I quit using 300 grainers and went back to the lighter bullets for hog hunting.

[jhalcott]

Jim,have you hunted ELK? thet can stay on their feet after being hit with a lot of guns.Their tenacity is legendary. You don't only have to kill an elk you have to STOP it. I prefer to be "over gunned" than under gunned no matter what I'm hunting. I know of one elk hunter that used a 25-06 on 3 with great success. The 4th took 3 hits to the lund/heart area and was killed by another hunter with a 300 Weatherby 500 yards away.The killer did not know it had been shot by the guy with the 25-06 as it was still walking.

[Redhawk1]

Elk have larger bone structures than deer. Also Elk tend to be a little harder to put down. I am not saying an Elk is hard to kill just they can absorbed more than a deer.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Jim,have you hunted ELK?

I was lucky enough to get a Michigan elk tag back in 2000.  Got a 6X6 with my .280 and a 139gr. Hornady Lt. Mag--dropped in his tracks with a heart/lung shot.  Being a cornfed Michigan elk, body-size he was bigger than anything I had seen when living in Idaho.

Back to the original question...  Wouldn't a 300gr. at 1050-1100fps go clean through an elk's lungs at handgun range?  Does the "max load" really do that much for penetration?

Jim

[crawfish]

Jim,have you hunted ELK?

I was lucky enough to get a Michigan elk tag back in 2000.  Got a 6X6 with my .280 and a 139gr. Hornady Lt. Mag--dropped in his tracks with a heart/lung shot.  Being a cornfed Michigan elk, body-size he was bigger than anything I had seen when living in Idaho.

Back to the original question...  Wouldn't a 300gr. at 1050-1100fps go clean through an elk's lungs at handgun range?  Does the "max load" really do that much for penetration?

Jim

Yes Sir IMHO it sure would, in .41 caliber at least. I started out reloading so heavy that the bullets caused a time vortex :wink: now all my .41 hunting loads use a 250g cast lead from BearTooth or CPBT at between 1150-1250 depending on the gun used. That load has gone through deer, goat/sheep, hogs, HOGS, a cow bison at 67 yards, and four feral cattle. No elk as yet but I cannot believe that an elk is any tougher to shoot through than a BIG HOG (300lbs or more). That 250g at 1150-1250 at 30 yards or less will shoot through two hogs if you have the patience to wait for that shot. :eek:

[mk454]

you are right to the original poster on this thread.  this has been the common misconception in the firearms industry for a very long time and it keeps getting worse.  on my very first elk hunt with a rifle, i had many telling me that my 30.06 was an ok choice but shots should be kept to under 200 yards.  well, sorry but i've got one accurate gun and shoot regularly out here in west texas much farther than that.  i ended up dropping that elk with a shot going stem to stern with a barnes x bullet i knew would hold up.  at over 300 yards that bullet went all the way through and showed no signs of stopping.  now, over 4 feet of elk getting passes through with what i was being told was a marginal caliber.  (to some, most think it's more than adequate)  my bud used a .308 and it was shot at around 100 yards through both shoulders and showed no signs of quitting as it destroyed the meat on both.  my point is that, yes, a hardcast 240 grain bullet at 1200 fps will blow through an elk, ANY elk.  just use the right bullet for the job.  punch a hole all the way through the vitals and it's gonna go down, just may have to follow for a bit.  btw, and this is fact, but elephants have been taken with a .22 long rifle albeit at a short distance and placed b/w the ribs.  just for giggles i drug out some of my old mags a few weeks ago and found some old .454 casull vs. brown bear articles.  seems the .44 mag resided in the place the ole' .454 does now.  back in the early 80's a .44 was marginal for bear, and the mighty .454 was capable of ko'ing one in short order.  now everything short of a .500 smith is undergunned, and some claim that is as well.  just use the right bullet and they'll all get it done.  my son has shot a few deer now with a lever action .357 with hardcast .38 bullets at a touch over 1200 fps.  they don't expand but just penetrate and penetrate, and penetrate on deer.  i know my FA 454 has no trouble blowing through elk with 300 gr at around 1400 fps and i know that's no where near max.

in a few years we'll need some short mag to hunt deer and only the super magnums or 500 + gr bullets maxed out of pistols will be what some will advocate for elk.  bottom line is marksmanship.  miss the shoulder and put it in the lungs and you'd be surprised what'll put an elk down.

[Boxhead]

While I have not dropped one to a handgun (trying more than once  unsuccessfully with a stout 45 Colt load) I have seen or have myself killed enough to see that the larger bores work better than the smaller bores (surprise, eh?). There is no question, in my observance, that when a non-optimum shot has been presented the 338-06, 35 Whelen and 375 H&H have worked demonstrably better than my partner's 270's and 30-06's. If patient with the shot (which come, at best, with a 4-5 year draw) the smaller bores will work just fine. I do not want to have to pass on a shot because I have been presented a "non-optimum" shot. Same goes for handguns for me.

[Doe]

Bigger bore or larger dia bullets MORE room for error :grin: Like every one say shot placement!

[Camel 23]

It's not so much how much meat you're going thru, but there are other factors.  Hydrolic shock is important in putting an animal down.  
I'd also say that whitetail are easier to put down than an elk.
What else?....  from the hides I've seen, I'd say that elk have a thicker skin to go thru.

I don't know, seems like you're trying to discuss something that's really obvious.

You're sure not going to win any friends around here with comments like this one.  As for Hydrolic shock,  I don't feel it is nearly as important to a handgun hunter or a bowhunter as it would be to a riffle hunter.  Bowhunters and handgun hunters are relying more on shutting down the animals central nervous system by destroying the heart and lungs which again goes back to shot placement.  

I have never shot an elk and probably never will (none around here to shoot) and to me this seems like and excellent question.  It sure seems to me that a bullet that can go lengthwise through a whitetail should be able to reach the vitals on a broadside elk.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

I have never shot an elk and probably never will (none around here to shoot)

Actually, a few years ago when I lived in Sault Ste. Marie, I knew a guy that had a couple of elk come into his baitpile!  Yup, after being released in Ontario, they decided to swim across to Chippewa County!  Word is that they went back to Canada...

Be sure to apply for an elk tag every year...  Got mine the first year I applied!

Jim

[Abearir]

How in Gods name have I managed to harvest elk with a punny 400gr arrow going a mere 280fsp..........man I'm WAY out gunned :wink:

[DakotaElkSlayer]

How in Gods name have I managed to harvest elk with a punny 400gr arrow going a mere 280fsp..........man I'm WAY out gunned :wink:

Bet most of those arrows blow right through an elk, too!  

My setup last year for Idaho was 402gr. at 267fps and I had total confidence that it was "plenty of gun".  That's what got me thinking...

Jim

[Cayoot]

While I have not dropped one to a handgun (trying more than once  unsuccessfully with a stout 45 Colt load)

I'm a bit confused here...are you saying that you shot more than one and the stout .45 Colt failed to bring the animal down?  Would you contribute this to excessive range, or maybe poor bullet construction, or would you say that the caliber was inadequate?

I'm always trying to decide which is the better deep performer...my .41 mag or my .45 Colt (Ruger).

So this really caught my attention!

[Cayoot]

[
Actually, a few years ago when I lived in Sault Ste. Marie, I knew a guy that had a couple of elk come into his baitpile!  Yup, after being released in Ontario, they decided to swim across to Chippewa County!  Word is that they went back to Canada...
Jim

Yup!  We've had a few moose here too.  One almost right in town!

I love living up here!

[Lloyd Smale]

put a bullet in the boiler room of any animal and its dead period! Ive never seen a heart shot animal or a double lunged animal that could heal itself. A 250 grain hardcast bullet at 900-1000 feet per second is going to out penetrate almost any jacketed rifle bullet at any velocity. For the most part you are never going to see drop in there tracks kills from handguns using any projectile. Just like its rare with a bow. But you also arent going to see a double lunged elk run 5 miles. Most game ive killed with a handgun or bow for that matter will run 50-100 yards and lay down and die. No caliber or bullet weight or choise of weapon will make up for poor shot placement!!! I spent the longest tracking sesson of my life after a 100 lb whitetail that was shot with my 8mag by my brother in law in the guts. We spent all night and half the next day in the swamp to recover that animal. It had a huge hole in it and was dragging intestine. Im sure a 22 lr into the lungs would have killed it quicker. I have noticed although its not a scientific study that larger caliber handguns seem to kill a little quicker example would be a .45 colt vs. 41mag loaded simularly but like i said its not scientific and its hard to judge because every animal seems to have a different amount of will to live. But in my experince a 44-45 loaded with a 250 at 900-1000 feet per second kills just as well at 50 yards as an 06 out of a rifle. Ps that deer was put down by him with his super blackhawk loaded with a 250 at 1000.

[xphunter]

Always go for the lungs and I have never been disappointed.  My 284 Win SP is in essence a 7-08 rifle performance and I have cleanly taken elk even bulls past 300 yards. a favorite of Col. locals is the 25-06 and I knew a gent in Greeley, CO who used his 300 Savage and took an elk almost every year (shot placement/shot placement/shot placement).
Not my last cow but the one before it, I shot three times.  After the first shot she just stood there like nothing had happened but we knew I had hit her hard (it was a double lung shot), so I kept sending them until she went down.  Elk don't always react to a lethal bullet impact like deer do.  I'm sure some people kill an elk (like a good double lung hit), and the animal takes off, but since it doesn't act like a hit deer they think they missed it.
I have upped my elk rig horsepower.  It is a XP-100 in 7mm, pushing a 200 grain bullet @ 2700+ fps.

[fowler]

Now I have the good fortune of living in Colorado and being a fairly serious elk and mule deer hunter. I have killed close to 20 of each animal and been in on about the same number with other hunters shooting.

Lets get a couple of facts strait, first elk are increadibly tough and demand far more respect in killing one than any thin skinned deer does. They are not super beasts that wear bullet proof armor, but they soak up bullets and go a long ways befor they die. I have broken the front shoulder of a elk at 200 yards with a 300 mag and 180gr Nosler Partitions and lost the blood trail and the elk 6 miles and 2 days later! I slipped the bullet through the shoulder and I think it exited the front of the chest between the front shoulders did not clip any vitals. I have shot with the same gun a 5x5 through both lungs and the heart and had it run over 1/2 mile before falling dead on a hill side so steep I had to hold on to trees to stay up right.

One of the best elk hunters I know killed the first 8 elk he ever shot with a .243 before he was told it was not a elk rifle!? He was a rancher who knew how to shoot, picked his shots at quiet elk (not spooked and pumped full of adrienalien), and they die by god.

What I am getting at is this shoot a elk in the vitals, at a reasonable distance, with a tough, well constructed bullet and they will die period. Hit one baddly and you will find yourself in a world of hurt and find out why elk have the reputations they do.

Why do people want the heavy stuff when just as you say you only need 3 feet to go through a elk? Well what happens when you mess up and your bull of a lifetime is wounded and about to walk into the dark forest 100 yards away at a bad angle and at last light? You need all the help you can get to pound through a rear ham to get to the vitals! Experienced elk hunters choose the very best guns and bullets for elk not for the ideal conditions but for the unfortunate conditions where the chips are down. I hunted the last two years with a .45 colt with 335gr LBT bullets at 1250 to 1300fps and feel I want everything that load will give me.

John Linebaugh has told me on several occations that at 1200 to 1300 fps you will get all the penatration that the bullet will give you, going faster does not get any better results. So the idea is go to the heaviest bullet you can get you gun to shoot at that speed, practice a lot and PICK YOUR SHOTS.

I love elk, eating, hunting, the lore of them etc. You owe it to a elk to respect it, give it everything you can, and kill it cleanly or don't pull the trigger. For the record I have passed on serveral opportunities with my pistol letting down the hammer unfired at least 5 or 6 times because conditions were not right, angle to much or the distance further than my self imposed limits (40 yards off hand and 75 with a good rest). The elk in my freezer died to my .338 with 230 grain Failsafes at last light on the last day, last year. But I am going wheelgun or nothing this year.

Good luck with your hunts

[Jon_E]

This WFNGC 250-gr hard cast from Beartooth Bullets with a meplat of 340 is enough to do the job, just the same as a 300-gr cast bullet with the same meplat.



Either one of these is plenty and can be loaded by any reloader to be very effective on elk, moose as well as grizzly bears  :cb2: