Author Topic: Accuracy woes (Read 1231 times)

Bob the Cynic · « **on:** May 17, 2006, 01:00:20 PM »

Hi all,

I recently bought a TC Hawken and I'm having a hard time getting good groups with it. I've shot in lines for a while now, but this is my first sidehammer. Rate of twist is 1 in 48 and I'm using #11 caps for ignition.

I've been shooting 275g TC maxi hunters over 80 to 100g of Pyrodex RS. (started with 80g and worked my way up to 100 in 5g increments. Best results have been with 95g)

At 95g I managed one 2 inch group at 50 yards, but wasn't able to duplicate it. Typically I would get two shots close together and a flyer. Sometimes the flyer was the first shot, sometimes the second or third. Almost all shots were high, even with the rear sight cranked down as low as it would go. No swabbing between shots. I'm shooting with a steady rest off of a bench. It's open sights (of course) and granted it could be me, but I'm generally better than than that.

So any advice or suggestions on powder or projectiles would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks ahead of time.

Smokepole cowboy · « **Reply #1 on:** May 17, 2006, 02:31:25 PM »

I have great results with a 50 T/C Hawken 1:48, using patched round balls and 90 grains of ff Goex black powder. I use .10 or .15 patches pre-lubed with bore butter.

jrkrk · « **Reply #2 on:** May 17, 2006, 02:33:06 PM »

Bob try the .490 round ball and a .15 or .18 patch with lube on it. I can shoot a 3-4" group at a 100 yds open sights all day with it. :grin:

Idaho Ron · « **Reply #3 on:** May 17, 2006, 02:47:42 PM »

I am getting awsome groups out of my Renegade. Mine has a Green Mountain stainless steel LRH barrel, The twist is 1-28. It also has Lyman peep sight with a globe front sight. I am using a hornady 410 gr 50 cal with 100 gr of pyrodex RS select, speed is 1450.
I am getting a average group of 1.40" at 100 yards with open sights. This weekend I sighted it in from 100 yards out to 250. I still have to do some work at 250 but milk jugs are toast out to 200 yards. Try the Hornady 385 if you have a 50 cal. Ron

simonkenton · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2006, 02:07:43 AM »

I have always used patched round ball in my TC Hawken, with 90 grains of black powder.
I got very good hunting accuracy.
If you have never tried them, round balls are great deer killers. Don't let anyone kid you, they work great. On a lung shot, I was getting quicker kills with patched round ball than I did with my 30-06.

propredator · « **Reply #5 on:** May 18, 2006, 11:51:14 AM »

You may have some lead in the barrel.Clean it out good with a brush and some good lead solvent.Could be that you may need some kind of wad to protect the base of the bullet.Too hot of a charge can cause lead fouling.Might work.

Landngroove · « **Reply #6 on:** May 18, 2006, 12:11:43 PM »

Was your Hawken new or used? Even if new, the barrel needs a good cleaning before firing. If used, a good bore cleaner, such as Shooters Choice Black Powder Cleaning Gel, and a brush of the correct caliber, to remove fouling, such as lead, plastic, copper, etc. Follow this up with a good scrubbing in hot soapy water. I shoot many T/C percussion and flint models. Goex Black Powder works best for me. I mostly use a .490 round ball, and .018" pillow ticking patches, in my .50's. Try Goex FFFG, 70,80, and 90 grains, or 80, 90, 100 grains of Goex FFG, in your Hawken, with a patched round ball. Be sure to wipe the bore of all lubricants, before a shooting session, as this can lead to fouling, and poor accuracy. I never had any luck with Maxi-Hunter's, in my T/C ML's, but PRB's shoot very accurately. IMHO if you try Goex Black Powder, you will not go back to Pyrodex.

lostid · « **Reply #7 on:** May 18, 2006, 07:51:46 PM »

wow, cleaning! I almost forgot about that. Serious, thankyou Prop and landgroove. I guess I forgot that the art of cleaning a barrel with white patches "till a white patch comes out white" is almost forgotten.(did i fergit?) What with all the gobbledegook they sell ya at the market today with "easy-clean this" an "fast-n-easy spray that",,and an no clog powders with "no build-up, garuntee'd"!!
It's true. proper cleaning is key too accuracy.

lostid · « **Reply #8 on:** May 18, 2006, 07:56:24 PM »

ps..(sprinkle the pyrodex on your lawn) t7 or a good grade bp will serve you better

sharps4590 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 18, 2006, 11:11:19 PM »

Regarding the high impact of the Maxi makes me wonder if the rifle was originally sighted in with round balls, if it is a used rifle. The front sight could have been filed. A heavier, slower projectile will generally print higher on the target than a lighter, faster projectile. Obviously you can't drive a Maxi as fast as a round ball. I'd recommend tossing the Maxi's and working up a round ball load using real black powder. Generally speaking the round ball will out shoot a conical every time and they're more than adequate for game. Also, in my experience, black will almost always give better performance than the fake stuff.

Often when moving from in-lines to traditional ML's there's as much a learning curve as when moving from smokeless firearms to modern muzzleloaders. They ain't the same critter!

Vic

fffffg · « **Reply #10 on:** May 19, 2006, 08:47:14 PM »

flyers could be from blown skirts or not sealed skirts, you will probably have to try different maxies unless your using factory recomondations.. i say this becouse you said the flyer could be the first round as this round will be comming from an unfouled barrel.. a heavy slug will move slower, recoil more and take more time to get out of the barrel causing it to shoot high or sometimes low depending on gun design your hold, etc. etc. i wouldnt worry about sighting itin , untill youve worked up a load that will makes you happy, then start drifting dovetails and raising lowereing blades and knotches.. with patches it can take a year to break in a barrel if you dont shoot a hundred rounds a month, depending on gun . so take your time, enjoy yourself and keep good records so you dont repeat your mistakes.. dave

Bob the Cynic · « **Reply #11 on:** May 20, 2006, 05:03:00 PM »

Hi all,

Thank you for the feedback.

Here is some more information on the gun and some comments. (In no particular order.)

Some more information on the gun for those that asked. It's used, but it was kept in imaculate condition. I suspect that it was rarely fired. I gave it a good cleaning before hitting the range for the first time, but I hadn't really considered leading as a potential problem. I can give it another cleaning and see if that makes a difference. The front sight hasn't been filed down as someone suggested.

I'm surprised to see the love for T7 here. I've used it in my inline and frankley I hated it. The crud ring was so bad I swore off the stuff, but I guess I could give it another go. To be honest though the Goex sounds more appealing.

First though I'm going to try a couple of different projectiles and see how they shoot. I'll branch out from there if I don't get satisfactory results. Right now I'm looking at 350g TC Maxi Hunters and 385g Hornady Great Plains Conicals. I'll try and get to the range next week and I'll be sure to let you all know how it goes.

On the plus side all this tinkering gives me more excuse to head to the range. :-)

Idaho Ron · « **Reply #12 on:** May 20, 2006, 05:49:15 PM »

I don't like 777. I tried it and I do have to say it was fast and it does NOT take as much 777 to match pyrodex. The crud ring was too much to deal with. We don't even have anyone that sells REAL black powder in the whole state of Idaho. Pyrodex is working well enough for me.

BTW don't forget to try the 410's I love them. Ron

sharps4590 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 21, 2006, 12:45:00 AM »

Going from a 275 gr. conical that shoots high to even heavier conicals "should" cause the rifle to print even higher. Such isn't always the case, however, as each rifle is an entity unto itself.

I don't understand your resistance to real black powder and PRB. They'll work every time in every rifle except possibly the fast twist, definite purpose rifles.

Vic

Idaho Ron · « **Reply #14 on:** May 21, 2006, 02:35:45 AM »

sharps4590,
I am assuming you are talking to me

. I don't have anything against Black Powder except we don't have a single place in Idaho to get it. Some of the members of your local club which I am not a member can order it. Even at that many of them don't use it because it is so hard to get
I don't see the need to develop a load for powder I can't get. No ill feelings just being practical. Ron

http://www.goexpowder.com/distributors.html

sharps4590 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 21, 2006, 01:13:56 PM »

Idaho Ron...no, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to Bob, who made the original post with the question. I misspoke and apologize as I see he's evidently going to try some real black.

No kidding, there's no place in Idaho where you can purchase black? We lived in Star Valley, Wyoming for 3 years or so and did most of our shopping in Idaho Falls. I never tried to find or buy any black while we lived there as I had plenty, still do for that matter. I would have thought somewhere there in Idaho Falls there would be some black available. Wow....the things a person learns.

There isn't any available where I live now but an hour or so any direction will find it. I wouldn't have thought that either when we moved here. I usually order a case with someone or just buy it myself. Comes a lot cheaper that way.

I tried T-7 in my Sharps rifles and double rifles and liked it fine. I've never tried it in any of my muzzleloaders, mostly because I shoot flintlock. If black weren't available that's what I'd be using. Pyrodex and I never could get along.

Vic

Bob the Cynic · « **Reply #16 on:** May 21, 2006, 04:16:13 PM »

Quote

I don't understand your resistance to real black powder and PRB. They'll work every time in every rifle except possibly the fast twist, definite purpose rifles.

No real aversion to either. I'm just more use to "bullet shaped thingies" having cut my muzzleloading teeth with inlines. Black powder isn't as readily available as Pyrodex and Pyro has served me well in my inlines. It's mainly a comfort/familiarity thing right now. If my experiements with heavier conicals don't pan out I'll expand my options. What the hell, more excuse to get to the range. :grin:

I'm not too concerned with the gun shooting high. I figure I can sort that out once I get it to group consistantly.

harryo · « **Reply #17 on:** May 21, 2006, 04:31:30 PM »

Having no local source for blackpowder should not be a deterent to using it if you really desire to do so. There are several online dealers which will ship quantities as small as 5 lbs to your door and even with the hazmat fee, prices are very reasonable. If you can combine orders with others and order by the case(25 lbs), you can obtain blackpowder for just over $9 a lb, shipping and hazmat fee included.

smokepolehall · « **Reply #18 on:** May 28, 2006, 02:46:03 AM »

I can'tget maxi-hunters to shoot right out my Renegade 50, but the maxi-ball is a sure killer and 2-3" groups at a hundred yds. with 80gr. and 85gr. of 3f Goex blk.powder. I found my pyrodex gets iffy after keeping it from one year to the next opened! Durn stuff makes half my conicals fliers! Swiss blk. is also great powder to use. Hard to get in Memphis, Tn. but the Goex i can get all day long and i use that. Oh yes same loads and accuracy using prb!

Bob the Cynic · « **Reply #19 on:** June 22, 2006, 01:28:55 PM »

So after much time at the range I've found two load that work in my gun. Both the 350g TC Maxi-Hunter and the 295g lead Power Belt (my apologies to the traditionalists :-) ) over 90g Pyrodex RS will produce sub two inch groups at fifty yards (and some one inch groups if I do my part) and three inch groups at 100. Plenty good enough for deer. I'll continue to experiement over the summer, but I'm thinking that's pretty good given open sights and my skills.

Thanks all for the help and advice.