Author Topic: Bullet failure  (Read 1956 times)

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Offline JJHACK

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Bullet failure
« on: January 09, 2006, 04:34:40 AM »
I think the question requires a definition. What exactly is bullet failure? It seems we are all considering this definition much differently.

I have read this statemet several times in my life now: "At what point during the animals death did the bullet fail"

Or the bullet exited with a bore size hole so it could not have expanded, must have failed.

Well, with any opinion somebody relates it needs high resolution to have any credibility,.........at least to me. How significant is a single event to try and prove or disprove a theory or function? As many of you know my background, you know I don't refer to single events to draw my conclusions from. I'm also not stuck with a single firearm type, caliber or cartridge. My hunters bring everything under the sun to shoot with archey, muzzleloaders, handguns, you name it I've probably had somebody hunt with it. They typically take well in excess of 100 big game each year. In the last 13-15 years I would say without question they have taken more then 2000 head of big game from the tiny steenbok up to the elephant. This does not incude the many years working in Alaska with goats, both species of bears, deer, wolves, cariboo, moose, etc.

With this kind of resolution you would think bullet failures would be seen eventually on at least some of these species. You would be correct. But then My definition of bullet failure may not be the industry standard (whatever that is) or even another persons opinion.

My simple definitions are
#1 lead and jacket seperation at any point after impact.

#2Not penetrating in a dead straight line.

I have seen both of these more times then I can count with cup and core bullets, I have seen the lack of straight line penetration more times then I can count with several versions of the Barnes X bullet.

In order to have seen or witnessed these failures I would have had to recovered the game. So the theory of "at what pint during the animals death did the bullet fail" is absolutely silly to me. If the bullets performance was unacceptable and you still lucked into the location of the dead animal why would you trust it on a second animal?

I could go into a list here of specific animals just from last season that I have seen failures on. However it's a safe bet that cup and core bullets are not the prudent choice for todays hunting where big game is important to recover. The original "premium" bullet is the Nosler Partition. Fully three times the cost of a cup and core bullet when released and remained double the cost for many years afterward. This was the baseline bullet for big game for probably 20 years or more.

Today you can buy a bonded core bullet which is so vaslty superior to the partiton at less then half the cost of the partition.

Recent catalog prices for example:
165 grain .308 Nosler Partition 23.16 per 50
165 grain .308 Hornady interbond 31.39 Per 100
165 grain .308 barnes X 28.83 per 50
165 grain .308 Swift Aframe 44.18 per 50

Standard cup and core bullets
165 grain .308 Speer 17.42 per 100
165 grain .308 hornady 16.15 per 100
165 grain .308 Sierra 17.58 per 100

I have seen everyone of these bullets shot and recovered. The majority of the cup and core bullets in many little pieces with the jacket seperated.

More then half the partitions recovered had no front half lead core attached. Not automatically bad. It's the design to do this. However it does leave many people with a bad feeling to see a bore diameter exit hole even though the bullet had violent internal expansion. It's still not as good at retaining the momentum of a bullet that will retain all its weight or the majority of its weight. It's also hard to beat a bullet that doubles its diameter or more and can maintain that dimater. Those exits leave a hella good blood trail!

I suppose in the end it's up to your definiton of bullet failure. Regardless if it's a sub 3000fps cartridge or over. Standard cup and core bullets will crumble and seperate. The frequency of this is higher the faster they travel. Standard bullets from a 30/30 work well, standard bullets from a 30/378 are a failure waiting to happen. If the issue is an important one for you then shoot the cup and core bullets all you want for practice, then switch to the premium bullets for use on game. At least that's what I do with my rifles.

As far as my recommendations go, sub 3000fps rifles will work far better with the Hornady interbonds. they are soft and stay in one piece very well. Rifles over 3000fps might be better with A frames. They are much harder and withstand much higher impacts better.

I would say the same for most bigger bore rifles as well. When shooting 338 or larger the A frame would be my bullet of choice on the bigger species. If you're lucky enough to have a rifle that can shoot the newest versions of the X bullet then that is a great choice as well. Not all rifles deal well with the X bullet though.
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Offline NONYA

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Bullet failure
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2006, 05:58:26 AM »
This last season I had a Nosler Accubond failure on two animals in a row out of my 7mag with 160s,I had recently switched from years of partition use.The first was a MD doe at 80 yards and the second was a cow elk at about 60 yards,both bullets completly disenegrated on impact,no exit on either and the elk shot didnt even penetrate past the front shoulder into the rib cage.I emailed Nosler about the failure and recieved a phone call from one of thier reps who explained to me they had a "hicup" in thier bonding process and many of thier early runs of the Accubonds were complete junk,he offered to send me some more,I declined and he sent them anyway.I was so pissed I just wanted someone at Nosler to know,Ive been loading thier bullets for 20 years.I loaded up some of the Barnes Triple shocks in a 160 to finish my season with,several deer,another cow elk and 2 antelope later Im sold on em,they perform exactly like they advertise and the one I was able to recover looks just like the pic in the box,the penetrate anything and loose 0-2% of thier weight.The only thing about them is make absolutly sure thier are no animals behind the one you shoot because that bullet is probably going through,the one i was able to recover was out of a MD buck I shot quatering towards me,went through the shoulder,spine and lodged under the skin on the hind quarter.Ill be shooting these Barnes triple shoks until they quit making them,they penetrate and thier is no bonded pieces that can fail,they are a 1 piece copper bullet.
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Offline JJHACK

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Bullet failure
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2006, 06:24:54 AM »
As my post states a few good events don't make a set of guaranteed facts. The failures I have seen with X bullets that did not open at all are the single greatest failure of any so called premium bullet I have ever seen.

I have ahd them recovered on the same side as the entry about 20-30 inches away. The bullets were recovered in the shape of a banana. I cannot even count how many I have seen recoverd that could have been reloaded again. They only had rifling marks on the outside.

So before anyone assumes that one kind of bullet is above failure it take a lot of resolutioin on game to have a more educated opinion. If I pulled all the great performance X bullets out of the history I have with them the number is staggering, However the less the perfect performace is also the highest.

I have not even one time EVER seen a Swift A frame that gave me or any of my hunters less then 100% exactly what was expected.  The same with the Hornady Interbond.  Both these bullets shoot with minimal problems for your barrel as well.

As you mentioned that great care should be taken when animals are behind to prevent shooting two. The X bullet may not open to the extent that you hope and this is what causes the phenominal penetration.  I have often refered to them as limited expanding solids. When a Barnes X bullet works as designed however,..........they are awsome!

Just remember one of these days you will hit something that runs off and you will assume a miss. Then when you look for blood and confirm a hit, that bullet may not have ever made it to the good stuff but may be under the skin near the hip! It's happend to my hunters many times. I do use the 450 grain X bullet in my 458Lott life insurance policy when working in Africa.  It's the only bullet I use. I have only recovered a few bullets in probably 200 animals now.  Everyone was missing the front petals, not a single one was recovered intact.  They do penetrate at bore diameter!
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Offline NONYA

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Bullet failure
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2006, 06:52:25 AM »
I shot 7 animals with the Triple shocks and they all left a reasonable exit wound and they were all 1 shot kills so Id have to say they all performed exactly as I wanted,these were deer,elk and antelope,Im sure African game,especially the cape buffalo make bullet performance a must,when we went over to Zambia my father used a barnes solid out of his 416 rem mag,2 shots coming head on,both of them penetrated the entire animal,exiting right above the tail.
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
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Offline Don Fischer

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Bullet failure
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2006, 07:37:47 PM »
That is a great writing on bullet failure!!!!!!!! Your statement's on the Barnes X sota of fall's in line with what I found with hollow point bullet's years ago. I shot a bunch (as exact a figure as I can remember) into newspaper. The majority of the hollow point's closed up and bent! They did not penetrate straight. The old Hornady bullets worked well but the core's all came loose from the jacket. The Speer Hot Core bullet's stayed in one piece and retained the most weight of non-hollow point bullets. All the bullet's were shot at sub 3000fps.

GREAT PIECE OF WRITTING!!!!!!!!
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline slave

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Bullet failure
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2006, 05:12:12 AM »
JJHACK,

Have you noticed if one bullet type will produce more bleading than another on lees than perfect shots? I am sure tracking plays a big role in your job and you must spend hours bent over each season.  I have often noticed that good shots may leave bad sign as well. What is your thoughts?
keep your powder dry !!!

Offline JJHACK

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Bullet failure
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2006, 12:03:07 PM »
There are far to many variables to say one is always better then another. I like large mushrooms and especially large starting diameters.

After shot placement the next most important thing is complete straight line penetration without bullet break up or having it curve inside the body.
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Offline RangerRiz

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Re: Bullet failure
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2006, 07:20:47 PM »
JJ
     Have you or any of you hunters used any of the bullets made buy GS Customs out of South Africa.





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ROLL TIDE!
Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions

Offline JJHACK

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Re: Bullet failure
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2006, 04:59:28 AM »
Yes they have. An expensive X bullet with hidious delivery schedules. If you can get them they are fine, But I would not hold my breath waiting on them. Two of my hunters in the past couple years have waited many months for them to get here( one was in Canada) they have some good bullets but a non-functional delivery system from what I can see.

Along the same lines as Woodleigh. Good bullets but inconsistant availabbility.

The Interbond for sub 30 caliber sub 300 lb game cannot be beat. The TSX for anything bigger from that class of gun

The Swift Aframe in 270 grain from the 375HH is the finest killer of big game I have ever expereinced in my whole career of much more the 1000 big game shot.

For DG back-up the Barnes X in 458 is as dood as it gets.

None of this really matters as much as what your barrel decides it likes though. Gotta go with the limited fouling and the most accurate bullet your barrel will take.
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Offline RangerRiz

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Re: Bullet failure
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2006, 08:53:07 AM »
    JJ
         Thanks fot the quick reply. I found there web site a cople of years ago and thought ther dg bullets with the flat nose would be just the ticket. I know what you mean about the Aframe dont think anyone has a better bullet (but you like it so i think i will have to find something else to use, they prob will not be made for much longer). I think i will stick with the partition on stuff where i dont need a bullte that good. Thanks again.



                                                                                            Justin
God did not create all men equal, Colt did!
ROLL TIDE!
Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions

Offline Prebanpaul

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Re: Bullet failure
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2006, 01:57:50 PM »
JJ

HOW DO YOU THINK THAT THE NEW BARNES MRX BULLET WILL PERFORM IN THE .308 165GRN BULLETS PUSHED TO 3800FPS. I THNK THAT NO MATTER WHAT I SHOOT IT WONT MATTER.

PAUL
LUCK when preperation meets opportunity.