MODERN DESIGN builders?

[EDELWEISS]

Im new to most of this; but Ive been kicking around the idea of a modern cannon or mortar for 20+ years.  I have lots of ideas floating around in the gery matter but no machine shop to build them.  

Ive always wanted a WW2 or later design.  Mostly for blanks and occasional range work.  I wanted to keep bore size to a cheaply available item, soda/beer cans, tennisball, etc.

At on point I played around with a 2/3 scale "Nebelwerfer" launcher.  I modified the design for a center barrel.  The surrounding barrels were purely cosmetic; but the center barrel was "live".  Not having a shop to work with, limited me to PVC :cry: .  My projectiles were empty 2lt soda bottles.    The outside barrels were simple tubes as the "nebelwerfer" was a rocket launcher.  The center barrel was closed with a PVC cap.  Not surprisingly the range was limited by the MINIMAL charges used because of the PVC.

It was eventually disasembled because of WIFE pressure, and truth be told it was pretty crude.  I always thought the concept had promise; but needed a skilled builder.  Sooooo after all that, are there any modern builders out there?

[Double D]

Sorry this board is reserved for Black Powder Cannons and Mortars that Meet ATF  defintion of antiques or replicas of antiques made before 1899.

Look around on the Internet you will find several boards dedicated to Class 3 weapons.

Now if you want to get into Black Powder cannons and mortars you have come to the right place.  Whole lot less legal issues and a bunch of fun to be had.

[EDELWEISS]

Perhaps Im not explaining myself correctly, or Im confused.  Im talking about a muzzle loader that fires loose powder from a fuse; BUT just looks modern.  Exactly the same as a Cohern Mortar or 6 pounder etc.  I didnt think there was a problem as long as it didnt fire a fixed projectile.  

Ive seen other postings on this site that talked about breech loaders that comply because they arent a complete round and the primer is in the breech plug, etc.

My question was about building the modern equilivant of a Cohern etc, with a touch hole to fire the powder loaded from the front and a projectile on top.  If I wasnt clear please forgive me.  The paperwork and Government hassels arnet worth the class 3 DD.  I just wondered if somebody was building "Look alikes".  

Does the project have to look like pre 1899 or just function like pre 1899?  I wonder because ATF allows semi auto rifles that look like MG's but are classified as simple rifles.  I re-read my post and see the confusion.  Once again it was clear to me in my dream design state.  Even the PVC project I spoke about was a muzzle loader; but just looked modern???

Soooooo, is it possible? And are the modern design with antique operation systems being build?

[Cat Whisperer]

...
Does the project have to look like pre 1899 or just function like pre 1899?  
...
Soooooo, is it possible? And are the modern design with antique operation systems being build?

The law reads of pre 1899 design or REPLICA thereof.  That, plus our knowledge of court rulings, to me indicates what it LOOKS like.  Odd; but that's the law, not necessarily common sense.

And then there are the phrases about being not self-primed cartridge loading etc.

So, we've chosen to keep as closely to the law rather than get nailed with a 10 yr / 10 grand ruling.

[Double D]

From the Board rules posteed at the top of th is forum.

This board is for the making and shooting of blackpowder mortars and cannons that meet ATF's description of an antique or replica of an antique.  You will find Links to ATF's various descriptions in our FAQ's and references posted at the top of the board.

We as moderators will enforce this rule as we understand ATF's definition.  We are not Lawyers.  We are going to go with what we know and understand. This is for your protection as well as ours.  We do not want this forum to become the hunting grounds for rookie ATF Agents trying to make their reputation.  The Veterans arenÂ’t going to bother us they are to busy looking for real crooks.

If you wish to provide us with a letter from ATF defining whatever other device you wish to discuss as an antique we will allow the discussion. Provide the letter first.

That being said this is what we accept on this forum.

1.  Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition

and

2. Manufactured in or before 1898...or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898)

or

3. Any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Stokes Mortar Click on this link for a explanation of why the Stokes Mortar is not allowed on this board. Stokes Mortar

What you are describing is a stokes mortar.

[GGaskill]

The best thing to do in your case is to write a letter to the ATF describing exactly what you want to build and how it would be loaded and fired.  They will respond with a letter quoting the various relevant parts of the law and telling you whether you can build your design.  1898 is not as restrictive a limitation as it might seem.  The French 75 mm rapid fire gun is from 1897 and it contains all the principles of modern artillery.  The only restriction is the use of self-contained ammo.

[reddog]

What about Diamondback cannons.  how are they allowed to sell thier very modern looking cannon?

[guardsgunner]

It is not a matter of how it looks, it is how it works. The ignition source on the diamondback cannon is external and if fired with a precussion #11 cap.

[EDELWEISS]

Well thank you for your advice!!! I TOTALLY Agree Im not looking for any problems and dont wish to provoke any.  Thanks again!  I'll stick to antiques.

[Double D]

What about Diamondback cannons.  how are they allowed to sell thier very modern looking cannon?

Simple enough it replicates any number of pre 1899 field guns and doesn't use rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition.  It might even be called a Parrot rifle replica. If I were them that is the position I would take.

I think there may be some other issues that exempt them, but that is just speculation on my part.

Some where a long time ago we had a discussion on the board about this gun. Here's the link to our previous discussion on this topic What IS legal? An issue that needs to be discussed[/color]
 

It is not a matter of how it looks, it is how it works. The ignition source on the diamondback cannon is external and if fired with a precussion #11 cap.

Take a look at the ATF definition again. It is a matter of how it looks.

1. Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition

and

2. Manufactured in or before 1898...or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898)

You have to have both. Antique ignition and replication.  Ya gotta have the look.

As the result of the previous discussion to make things simple and clear for us as moderators CW and I established this rule for the board:

This board is for the making and shooting of blackpowder mortars and cannons that meet ATF's description of an antique or replica of an antique.  You will find Links to ATF's various descriptions in our FAQ's and references posted at the top of the board.

We as moderators will enforce this rule as we understand ATF's definition.  We are not Lawyers.  We are going to go with what we know and understand. This is for your protection as well as ours.  We do not want this forum to become the hunting grounds for rookie ATF Agents trying to make their reputation.  The Veterans arenÂ’t going to bother us they are to busy looking for real crooks.

If you wish to provide us with a letter from ATF defining whatever other device you wish to discuss as an antique we will allow the discussion. Provide the letter first.

That being said this is what we accept on this forum.

1.  Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition

and

2. Manufactured in or before 1898...or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898)

or

3. Any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Stokes Mortar Click on this link for a explanation of why the Stokes Mortar is not allowed on this board. Stokes Mortar

None of this means we agree or disagree with law. The final decision on enforcing the law is up to ATF and interpretation is up to the Courts.

To restate our position on post 1898 guns If you wish to provide us with a letter from ATF defining whatever other device you wish to discuss as an antique we will allow the discussion. Provide the letter first.

I might add we have had one letter produced...Way to go Powderkeg!! I will also add that ATF defined PowderKeg's gun as not a gun but a signalling device. Will My 12 Ga Breech Loading Blank Firing Cannon Be Illegal?[/color]

There is a forum for discussion of class three weapons on GBO found at Self Defense Guns and Exotic Weapons[/color]

[reddog]

Thanks DD for that very detailed answer. This is why I like this web site, so much imformation!!!!

[Double D]

Thanks DD for that very detailed answer. This is why I like this web site, so much imformation!!!!

Reddog, I am in South Africa, I don't have a TV, metal shop  or guns.  I have time  :lol:

[GGaskill]

What's the law regarding muzzle loading artillery down there?  Could you ingratiate yourself with a machine shop and make some stuff you could use there?

[Cat Whisperer]

....
Reddog, I am in South Africa, I don't have a TV, metal shop  or guns.  I have time  :lol:

Do you have a guitar?