More unknown marks; Spanish Pedrero

[cannonmn]

I don't know what the "R with horns" means, nor the triangle to the left of it in this slightly o.o.f. photoof the muzzle of a Spanish 3-pounder bronze Pedrero.  Can you help?



This is a small part of a much longer story that's near the top of the Company of Military Historians forum if you need more detail.

[Bob Smith]

crown? crowned royal, or king or rei or whatever the Portuguese word for king is .

[cannonmn]

Bob, thanks, good suggestion.  If so it would be the first Spanish piece I've seen with redundant "Real" (Royal) markings.  This one is the small Pedraro at the Washington Navy Yard/Navy Museum that we've both studied independently .  I say redundant  because it also has the royal arms of Spain cast in relief on top of the gun near the breech.

I'm getting a bit puzzled by all of the different variations of the Royal Arms of Spain I see used on Spanish cannon before the "Carlos III" Royal Cypher replaced the Arms of Spain.  Some have the Bourbon escutcheon (small shield or oval with three fleur-de-lis) in the middle of the four corner fields and some don't.  Some that don't were cast well after the Bourbon escutcheon was "officially" added in, I think, 1761.  At this point, I'm having to assume the cannon founders in various parts of the Spanish empire may have done things a bit differently, or were very late to get word of the change, or maybe they felt the change wasn't mandatory. 

[cannonmn]

I'm going to take another guess at the mark I called the "R with horns."

Old Spanish bronze cannons still in use during the 19th C., and those newly-cast during that period, are often found with stamped characters on the upper muzzle-face which are abbreviations for their type and caliber.  Some examples of Spanish upper-muzzle face marks I've seen: 

9" howitzer, long (cast in 19th C.) "O.L. 9"

8 pounder, short, cast in 1808 "8 C"

12cm mountain howitzer cast in 1844 "O.12.M.L." (photo)

16 cm bronze gun cast in 1795, later rifled "16 C"

In looking at the Pedrero's mark, it looks more like a "P" with some little arms on it, not stamped cleanly like the "P." Maybe the little legs or arms were added later as somebody's form of graffiti.

[Cannoneer]

In order for the supposition put forward in the previous post to be correct, wouldn't there be more than one mark placed on the muzzle face? I can't make out the triangle shape you mentioned, but what I mean is two marks next to each other (letter and number) as in the examples you gave. 

[subdjoe]

I don't know what the "R with horns" means, nor the triangle to the left of it in this slightly o.o.f. photoof the muzzle of a Spanish 3-pounder bronze Pedrero.  Can you help?



This is a small part of a much longer story that's near the top of the Company of Military Historians forum if you need more detail.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that that mark isn't an R at all, but an eagle with an escutcheon for the body.  Stick figure of it anyway.  On top, the central spike has a blob that points to dexter, the two flanking arm are at about the right angle to be the leading edge of stylized wings.  The two lower spikes seem way too short to be the legs of an R, but just about right for the legs of an heraldic eagle.

Just my warped take on it for your consideration.

[cannonmn]

Both of the last two posts suggest that the symbol may not be related to the "type and caliber" system at all, which is certainly possible.  Last post:  Yes I can see an obese, clubfooted  eagle in that figure; makes as much sense as anything.  If it is in fact a stylized eagle, that could be a proofmark or some added-later mark.  I think this piece may have been cast in Mexico and their national symbol is an eagle, so....? 

The die-struck triangle is at 7 O'clock to the "Eagle" with one point touching or almost touching the bore.

[subdjoe]

Yes I can see an obese, clubfooted  eagle in that figure; makes as much sense as anything.  If it is in fact a stylized eagle, that could be a proofmark or some added-later mark.  I think this piece may have been cast in Mexico and their national symbol is an eagle, so....? 

obese, clubfooted  eagle in that figure   

Yeah, heraldic eagles can be strange looking.  But if it was an old die that was used to make that mark details might be lost.  And I can't come up with any way to call it any sort of "R."

I tried to convince myself that it might be a grenade, but it would be easier to justify an "R" than a grenade.

[cannonmn]

Anyone interested in more info on this weapon might want to read some of the many related posts on the Company of Military Historians Forum, going back a couple of years.  The latest topic title for that series is Navy clings to "Cortez Gun" myth posted on 18 June 2011. 

[Cannoneer]

In looking at the Pedrero's mark, it looks more like a "P" with some little arms on it, not stamped cleanly like the "P." Maybe the little legs or arms were added later as somebody's form of graffiti.

You've had the opportunity to get a much better look at it, but just by judging from the photos you posted I think this assessment of the mark may be right.
That colonial muzzleloading bronze pedrero that you tried to purchase through the internet middle man (who we wont mention by name) had "PEDERO" marked on a trunnion face, which actually translates to 'foot rot' (I wonder if they just couldn't fit in the other R, or it's mispelled because it's from a colonial foundry).
Do you think there's any chance that the P (if it is a P) found on the muzzle face of this cannon simply stands for Pedrero?

[cannonmn]

>Do you think there's any chance that the P (if it is a P) found on the muzzle face of this cannon simply stands for Pedrero?

Could be.  The three little legs coming out of it could be some kind of code for a 3-pounder, which I think it is.  If we had access to more specimens we'd probably be able to figure all this out.  The descriptions of the other similar Spanish breechloaders in the Catalog of the Museo del Ejercito didn't go to the level of detail that would have included marks on the muzzle if any.   

It would be great if we could get a look at the twin to the one in the Navy Museum.  It was captured in Alvarado, Mexico along with the other.  They were together in the ordnance museum at the Wash. Navy Yard/Naval Gun Factory from 1865 or so until 1925 when a lot of the material was transferred to USNA.  It was outside at USNA, covered with many coats of green paint, fortunately, for a long time but it disappeared several years ago.  Either it was stolen or the USNA museum has it in storage.  I don't think I'd have any luck getting a look at it or getting photos, perhaps someone else would care to try?  The registrar is Mr. Don Leonard, his email and phone nos. are on the web if you google "USNA museum staff."

[cannonmn]

I registered on a Spanish Naval History website and asked my Pedrero questions there.  I am getting some info back.  It took a long while for the registration to go thru.  There's quite a bit of interesting stuff on that site, but all in Spanish, and you are only allowed to post in Spanish,.  I have the Google translator set up on my browser so it automatically translates anything it recognizes as Spanish, into English.  That forum's rules are the toughest I've ever seen on a forum, made me feel like I was dealing with the Spanish Inquisition when I read them.

http://foro.todoavante.es/index.php

[Cannoneer]

It could have been rougher, maybe you should be grateful that they didn't also demand you go through the "Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults." Have you gotten any useful responses to the questions you posed there yet?

[cannonmn]

Have you gotten any useful responses to the questions you posed there yet?

Yes there is believe it or not a constant stream of stuff coming out.  They have the books and the knowledge.  Obviously most of the books on Spanish cannons are in Spanish and they seem to know or have most of them. 
 
I've started about five threads there and they are keeping two or three of them going with various inputs.  I would say it is well worth the trouble of joining.  If you add the free Google translator thing to your Google toolbar whatever it sees in a foreign language is translated automatically, so the language difference is something you can get used to in a few days.  They've put pages of stuff on there about Pedreros, in the form of excerpts from books, largely.  They are quite friendly also, and they do welcome gringos.  You must post in Spanish, cite sources, give their forum credit in the proper format if you transfer info to another forum, and follow some other rules but it is worthwhile.  There's just nowhere else to get the info I'm getting there.