Author Topic: That old and boring 30/06...... some real performance data!  (Read 1967 times)

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Offline JJHACK

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As Promised I have recovered and recorded a lot of information on the bullets used this season from my loaner 30/06 rifle.

First some of the facts and details regarding the loads and the gun used.

Rifle: Model 70 Winchester PacNor  23” barrel in standard 30/06 cartridge

Winchester Brass
Federal 210M primers
IMR4350 powder 58 grains
Chronographed at 2900 plus at 55deg F

Game shot by 6 different hunters six male one female

6 warthogs
12 impala
6 Kudu bulls
1 Kudu cow
5 Zebra
3 waterbuck
6 wildebeest
4 Red Hartebeest
4 Blesbok
2 Nyala
1 Steenbok
1 Gemsbok

51 total animals. One was not recovered, a Blue Wildebeest was lost although a confirmed hit with a short blood trail.

Shortest shot was a impala at about 40 feet, longest shots were a Zebra at a laser measured 237 yards, Blue Wildebeest at 198 yards, Kudu Bull at 225, and Impala at 177 yards all measured with my LRF 1200.

35 were shot with the Barnes TSX bullets. 7 were recovered
6 were shot with the Federal Fusion factory loads
6 were shot with Hornady Interbonds
4 were shot with the PMC factory loads

My unbiased assessment is as follows. However I must first say that I was admittedly very skeptical of the Barnes bullets based on my prior extensive experience with the original X bullet design. I must also admit to not being very impressed with the Fusions lack of velocity at only 2700plus fps. The PMC bullets were on hand and used to share the difference between factory cup and core bullets and premium handloads. The Interbonds  were already a well known performer and had a lot of respect from me.






My rifle was zeroed with the X bullets and shooting hole touching groups at 100 meters. Prior to departure I shot a three shot group to foul the barrel. Upon arrival I shot a 2 shot group to prove the travel did not compromise the scope adjustments. There were 5 shots now through the barrel. Each hunter using this rifle also shot it before their hunt started. The Fusion, PMC, and Interbond bullets would shoot into about a 3+” group mixed POI's with the settings used for the TSX bullets.

The Federal Fusion Bullets:  Underpowered for bigger game. The lack of velocity and the unpredictable bullet shapes left me unimpressed. Although they held together they under penetrated and fell short of my desired performance hopes. It’s an excellent inexpensive deer and smaller big game bullet but does not have the kind of killing power I expect with a 30/06 using other loads and bullets. A good choice for deer, impala, blesbok, but I would not likely choose them for anything bigger or even on the tough little warthog. I stopped using this bullet for further shooting on game based on the early limited performance on the recovered game and bullets. With the shallow penetration and oddly shaped mushrooms I was not confident to shoot game as tough as wildebeest, gemsbok and zebra with these bullets.

PMC Bullets: As can be expected with these bullets being Cup and Core design they will kill about like the Fusion bullets. If everything is perfect they work fine, but when something goes wrong they will not provide the edge I would like to see in my bullets. All of them failed to stay in one piece and all lost much if not all functional weight retention.

Hornady Interbonds: Work flawless and 100% predictable 4 out of the 6 were recovered and all had massive expansion with great weight retention. Another hunter used these bullets in his 30/06 AI and had identical performace and recovery percentages as my standard 30/06. The AI version was about 90fps faster at 3000fps. A better bullet would be difficult to choose. I have already posted dozens of pictures and text on these bullets in the past. This years experience is the same. It's a class act by Hornady and difficult to choose another bullet over this design.

The Barnes TSX bullet: Well this was the one that drove this project for me. Although I am very pleased with the performance. I am very happy with the results of so many deadly shots on big tough game animals. I’m still skeptical about some of what I have seen. The 7 recovered bullets look almost identical and have from what I can see 100% weight retention. Not a single petal was broken off and all expanded from the close range 40 yard shots to the longer near 250 yard shots. Some exits were massive and the blood was flowing freely. Others showed me a bore diameter hole and not a drop of blood from the exit. I’m stumped as to how these bullets exit with an exact bore diameter hole? Yet some others have a huge exit hole. I had about a 20% recovered bullet rate from these bullets. The lowest recovery percentage of any bullet I have ever used. Exits are the norm with the TSX. I had a bullet zip clean through the shoulders of a Big Zebra at 237 yards which included the vertebra and one scapula above the shoulders. This is enough mass that I have seen it stop a 270 grain Swift A frame from a 375HH plenty of times. Yet a 165 grain TSX from a 30/06 passed through. 4 zebra were shot with the 30/06. One needed a follow up shot, all 4 of the TSX bullets passed through these zebra. Only the one follow up shot was inside one of them. Zebra, Gemsbok, and Blue Wildebeest are about the best bullet stopping plains game we have. All three species were shot clean through with this bullet. Few provided a good blood trail often due to the bore diameter exit holes. Those that had good blood trails when recovered always had good exit holes too.

Here is an Impala with a noticeable exit hole but you can clearly see there is no blood flow.



I have 4 other TSX bullets I could photo and post here. However they are identical to the first two in this photo. They would be difficult to tell apart had I not marked them before I left! The only oddball in the group is the one from the zebra. It was recovered inside the heart. It has a wrinkled petal which you can see in this photo. All the others are exactly the same.


The rifle was not cleaned, barrel swabbed out, or oiled during the entire trip. On my last evening I hunted hard for a warthog. I walked from 2:30 PM til dark about 6PM I was hunting alone and looking for a whopper warthog I had seen twice in the prior several weeks I had been hunting here. In the closing moments of light about 5:55 I saw what looked like a shooter. At 75 yards he was trotting parallel to the road I was on, and slightly quartering away from me through the bush. When the warthog cleared a bush and left me with a fleeting moment between bushes I leveled the upper crosshair and touched off the trigger when it was layed behind the last rib. It appeared as if I rolled him over but the muzzle flash was too bright. I walked to the spot and saw a spot of blood. Then there in the flashlight beam just ahead he layed dead. The blood flow was significant and the exit was through the opposite scapula.

Several times I tested the accuracy during the week with targets. Each time the bullets were into the 1” square “bullseye” on the target at 100 meters. With nearly 60 shots fired during this trip and no cleaning I trusted this rifle and bullet combination on the last moment shot at the warthog. There was simply no fouling problems with these TSX bullets and this PacNor barrel!

I would certainly feel a whole lot better if the exits looked like they had more consistency in size. However I have also come to another probably arguable conclusion with the TSX and the 30/06.  I would much prefer to have a 30/06 with this bullet and a rangefinder then a 300mag of any make without a rangefinder. I feel 100% confident that these bullets will penetrate and shoot accurately as far as I would like to shoot. Say 400 yards or so. If you know the distance with the rangefinder hitting the target is not complicated or risky with low wind. These 165 grain TSX bullets in a 30/06 will out perform a 300 magnum with a standard cup and core bullet every time. Sure you can up weight with a 300 magnum and use the 180’s. However if the 30/06 killed 50 of 51 tough big game animals I’m not sure moving to the 300 mag is a practical choice if you want more power. I think moving to the 338 is much more logical. If shooting long range 450 yards plus is the reason then would I agree. However a rangefinder with a 30/06 is still a very do-able shot with these TSX bullets on a calm day.

So do I switch now from the Hornady Interbonds I love so much to the TSX bullets? …………..Wow talk about a tough choice!  The TSX shoots a tiny bit better in Accuracy, the tips don’t deform, they seat very tight in the brass with the groves. They don’t have the 100% internal damage consistency that the Interbonds have, but they are close and I cannot explain why the exit holes are bore diameter on some of the game. I do have a photo coming of the exit on a zebra. It looks like the stallion was shot with a small broad head. It has 4 slices about ¼” long each. It’s a brilliant exit hole. Why don’t they all show this?  Maybe 35 big animals under nearly identical conditions is still not enough information? I will say that If I only saw 10-12 of the best  exits I would swear these were the best bullets on earth no question, hands down, end of story. I may yet agree to this statement. However there were those few that leave me wondering why a tiny little exit hole as if the bullet did not open or the petals all sheared off? ( no petals ever found inside) I will continue to use them until the first time I find one that is unopened inside an animal. If that does not happen I may not use anything else in this rifle.  I think they make a better large big game, Elk, bear, zebra, wildebeest, gemsbok, eland, waterbuck, moose, etc bullet then the Interbond because the exits at least in theory should provide more blood flow. I think the interbonds will provide much more explosive impact and internal trauma on deer sized game like antelope, sheep, blesbok, impala, etc.

They do not have a similar POI or load to shoot well from my rifle. They are as incompatible with a single scope setting as possible. I will have to pick one and stick with it. So for now I’ll stay with the TSX. As far as I’m concerned the TSX does more with the available power of the 30/06 then the Interbond does. The much higher frequency of exits is a benefit to good blood trails. I know my weakness as a confirmed bullet recovery junky even though I know they should all exit.

I’m not sure you can make a mistake in choosing between the 165 grain AFrame, Interbond, Accubond, TSX, or Partition, The one that shoots best in your barrel and gets a minimum level of functional velocity should do fine. I guess having to choose between the 165 grain Interbond and the 165 grain TSX for me is actually a good problem to have.
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Offline CyberSniper

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That old and boring 30/06...... some real performance data!
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2006, 05:07:02 AM »
Looks great overall.
BUT, I'm still wondering how the heck you can have that large
an exit hole and yet no blood flowing ?
That's really odd.

Offline Dusty Miller

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That old and boring 30/06...... some real performance data!
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2006, 08:48:55 PM »
JJ, you've fueled my determination to hold on to my Modle 70 '06 'till they drop my carcass into that hole in the ground!!
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline Buckfever

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Thank You ...Real Information!!
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2006, 03:21:23 PM »
I have been using the TSX with all most match accuracy in my Tikka 30-06.  I guess that old 06 can still hold its own!!!!  Great piece of research>
Thanks  Buckfever

Offline DanP

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That old and boring 30/06...... some real performance data!
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2006, 03:55:34 PM »
I fretted over what to bring with me... decided to bring something that was accurate and that I trusted, but that wouldn't make me cry if I lost it.  These included my Rem 700 Classic in .375H&H (that *would* make me cry -- it is unreasonably accurate), and my Browning stainless stalker (very accurate, but not impossible to replace; it might be a long time before I can replace my Win mod 70 in .30'06 -- which is just as accurate).  The Browning failed to dent the firing pin 3 times -- recocking (lift and lower the bolt) and it fired.  Examination of a failed round indicated just a tiny mark from the pin -- that made me sad, but I got my animals.

My luggage took 3 days to catch up with us.  In the mean time, I had to get hunting boots locally (hard to do if you wear US size 14).  Got my boots.  Borrowed ammo.  Took:

1 impala
1 blesbuck
1 red hartebeest
1 black wildebeest
1 springbuck
1 mountain reedbuck

All of that with ammo that I couldn't even tell you how it was loaded.

Further, each shot showed good exit wounds (no bullet to recover), showing decent expansion.

With the .375H&H I shot a rabbit and a gemsbok -- after the luggage with my ammo came.  Didn't need it for these, but I couldn't see bringing the rifle and not using it.  I used 270 gr failsafes in the .375H&H -- no expansion on the gemsbok -- but the rifle performed nicely.

Dan

Offline Dusty Miller

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Re: That old and boring 30/06...... some real performance data!
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2006, 03:51:02 PM »
Hey Dan, you never know when you'll come across one of them African attack rabbits!!  Use enough gun ;D
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline DanP

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Re: That old and boring 30/06...... some real performance data!
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2006, 07:59:56 AM »
When we shot the rabbits, our original purpose was to look for jackels.  Weird animals -- unlike our coyotes, they will yip-yip-yip as they circle downwind after you call with your preditor call.  However, they all hung up and wouldn't come in.  On the way back, we saw the same rabbits hanging around that we'd seen on the way out, and one of us used his .22-250 to shoot at it -- missed (?).  Next chance was mine -- I said, "Are you sure you want me to shoot that animal with this rifle?"  Scott said, "Shoot it!"  I did.

The REASON I'd chosen the .375 H&H was that I wanted to try out the hypothesis that a .375 H&H shooting fail-safes (nearly solids on tiny animals) would cause less damage than a .22-250.  I'd hoped to mount the animal if I got it.  In any case, Bob got his rabbit on his next try, and the .375H&H actually DID cause less damage than the .22-250... just as had been suggested in other reading I'd done.

Having been informed that hyrax are the closest relation to elephants, it startled me that these woodchucks that climb all sorts of things, including abandoned houses, could be so related...  It brought to mind the conversations I'd had with friends when I bought that .375H&H.  When they asked me what I'd hunt with it, I sayed "woodchucks."  They said they'd hate to see a woodchuck that needed it.  Well -- looks like elephants qualify...  just too bloody expensive!

Dan

Offline JoeBru

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Re: That old and boring 30/06...... some real performance data!
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2006, 06:52:14 PM »
JJ this may seem like a stupid question, but here goes.
If the TSX are giving inconsistent performance i.e. some bullet diameter exit holes.
And the 165 grain Interbonds perhaps less penetration than you would like.
Then why not go to 180grain Interbonds?
The lower impact velocity and greater momentum will increase penetration while still giving more than adeqate expansion.
And the trajectory of the 180's out to 300 yards is going to be within an inch or so of the 165's.

Offline JJHACK

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Re: That old and boring 30/06...... some real performance data!
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2006, 05:57:16 AM »
Well, it's been a long time experimenting with the 30/06. 3500 rounds through the first barrel, and well over 1000 through this one so far. Pushing 5000 handloaded rounds right now and many 100's head of big game taken with it. At this point in my experience with the loading and the performance that the 180 grain bullets. I've concludedthey are very difficult to achieve 2800fps with great accuracy and low pressure. I've had a few loads that make 2850, but they are not accurate. I've had some that are spectacular accuracy but barely get shoot 2730 fps.  The 30/06 case is just a bit to small to achieve the best performance with a 180 grain bullet. ( My opinion so far)

With the 165 grain bullets I've shot them 3000 fps and still had good accuracy but way to high pressure. With 2900 they have both deadly precise accuracy and low pressure. When using a premium bullet they are like magic. Don't mistake my post as a critcism of the bullets, but rather an observation of the performance. I'll not likely be going back to 180's anytime soon with the performance of the 165 and the TSX, A frame or the Interbonds.

I could switch to the 180 intebond with the shorter length sooner then the 180 TSX. But then I lose about 200 fps in velocity for 15 grains in weight. Not a functional trade for me. The 165's shoot one enlarged hole groups, and shoot much flatter over longer distance then the slower 180's. It's not a question of bullet weight for me now. I know the 165's are the best choice. It's now a question of which fantastic bullet to choose from!
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