Military sidearms

[Questor]

Who in the military is actually issued a side-arm, and why?

It's a loaded question because there are guys like me who look at history and note that the average GI receives little or no training in sidearm use and the observations of gunnery personnel indicate that most soldiers can't shoot a pistol well enough to defend themselves, and they never learn to do so. Then there are guys like Jeff Cooper who insist that the pistol is the most underrated fighting tool "if only they would receive adequate training". It seems like ol' Coop's line of reasoning is just good old petitio principii, and is falacious because of its circularity.

Anyway, who gets a sidearm? Are they trained to use it? If they get one but aren't trained to use it, then why have sidearms in the military at all?

It seems like a good question because with all this jabber about the possibility of going back to the 45ACP, one wonders whether it will make any difference because if you can't hit your target, it doesn't matter what you're shooting.

[DWTim]

I'm not sure where you're coming from here. Cooper certainly prefers a rifle over a purely defensive weapon like a hangun. What brought this topic to mind? Where did you get information about pistol training for the average GI?

[simplicity]

Well I can tell you from my time in the Marines The only ones that were issued pistols were Cor man (navy docs) platoon sargents and platoon commanders and pretty much any officer. Yes they have to qual with the pistol and a few infantrymen are selected to qual as well.

[poncaguy]

I carried a 1911 45 for 3 years in Goeppingen Germany...we had to qualify with it.........and it was hard......they were loose and worn out. I was a Combat MP. I like my Ruger P90 and P345 much better BTW.

[rockbilly]

Generally speaking, pistols were issued to officers, and enlisted in duty positions where it would not be prudent to issue a rifle, such as cooks, admin personnel, communications personnel, tankers, etc.  This was not always true, some folks just can not shoot a pistol.  During WW II, the M1 Carbine was used to fill the need of those that could not handle a pistol.  Personnel were easier to train, and were better shooters due to the increased sight radias. 

Today things differ from service to service, the Air Force still issues pistols to commanders, security personnel and to aircrews, the rest of the folks are isued some form of the M16.

Don't take this as the "truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth," but it is in the ballpark.   

[Sourdough]

I'm retired Air Force.  As an Airman and lower ranking NCO, we never had anything to do with pistols.  Only M-16s and M-60s.  As a Senior NCO I had to qualify with a Smith and Wesson .38 Special.  Training was quite intensive and good.  And at the end of the couses if you did not put every shot where it needed to be you did not qualify.  As team chief during exercises I had to carry a firearm loaded with real ammo,  Myself and the Officer in Charge.  The troops only had blanks for their M-16s.  Seems there had been an incedent where someone who knew that the troops only had blanks had came in and made an armed robbery of the M-16s.  The military had been embarresed so from that point on someone had to have real bullets to protect the real M-16s being used by the troops. 

Then in 1983, when I was suddenly deployed from Incerlik Turkey, to Beirut, they looked on my mobility record and saw I was pistol qualified so they issued me a 1911 Colt .45.  Good thing I had one at home and had taught myself how to use it.

[williamlayton]

I believe/think/cannot prove but have reason to argue that in a combat zone anyone can carry a personal sidearm. It can be of ones own owning or military issue, and have reason to bleieve that the ownership or method of possession is not questioned.
I do know that, in WWII, many carried personally owned sidearms and many that were captured/confiscated/obtained from unknown sources.
In combat zones the weapon of choice by grunts was very rarely questioned, with the exception of specific weapons required of platoons.
Blessings

[rockbilly]

On one of my trips to Viet Nam I went with a unit on a military aircraft.  We were authorized to carry a personal fire arm with as long as it was listed on your individual military travel orders by make, model and serial number.  I carryed a S&W model 28 (4 inch, .357) with a box of FMJ ammo.  I knew I could get .38 in Nam, so there would always be plenty of ammo available.

Like sourdough, I also spent 24 years in the Military, most in the Air Force.  When the military went from using military aircraft  (in most cases) for moving troops they stopped the practice of carrying personal firearms.  Most military personnel today are moved by contract airlines, often landing at civilian airports both in the US and overseas, so carrying firearms of any type by an individual is rare.

In addition to my military carreer, I also spent 26 years in civil service working in the aircraft and logistics field, during my military and civilian service, it was rare to see an NCO other than a security forces member with a sidearm.  Most still carry the little black gun.  Working logistics, and responsible for the deploymment of military members for the past five years, I don't recall ever processing an individual with a personal firearm.

From my experience, most enlisted who have a sidearm in a combat area, and are not in one of the areas where they might be issued, obtained the gun by, in most cases, some method other than the prescribed method. (picked up off the battle field, stole it, bought it, etc.) This was "common" in Viet Nam, but no one seemed to care.  We were picking up wounded after a fire fight in Nam, While waiting for the Med Evac Choppers to be loaded I picked up a Thompson.  Three months later the Army CID called me in and questioned me about it, I admited I had it, their response was OK, we just had to account for it.  I didn't know, but a battlefield recovery group has already addied the gun to their inventory list.  They traced it to me by process of elimination and talking to all the aircrew members that had flown into the site after the battle.

[S.S.]

I do not know anymore who gets issued what, but
Watch the news clips that are from Iraq and Afghanistan
and see how many troops carry M9's... There are a lot of them.
Look cross draw on their chest web-gear,
that is where a lot of them are carried now.
Back in the day, every one in my unit had a 1911.
we were "QUALIFIED" but were not issued a lot of practice
rounds. "Qualified" is a very loose term sometimes a far as proficiency goes!

[jamaldog87]

well from what i hear from my dad (he was there in 1990) that handgun were given to personnel who require a gun but need both hands fro there work, like aircrew,doc, lot of the airforce people, non-combact personnel , and women had them to. most of these people had the m11 or  sig p228 for there gun. also guns like the colt .45, beretta 92fs, and the H&K mk 23 were seen. the .45 were what the Marine Corps and the special forces use. my dad was in the navy and he had a M9 but he got just training  on the ship as you would get for your m16 but for handgun.

[Dave in WV]

Who get issued a handgun in the military? In the AF certain officers (if in a combat theater), aircrew, security police, finance payroll clerks, USAF Office of Special Investigations agents ( like army CID), troops guarding or transporting weapons, and couriers to name a few. All have to qualifywith the specific handgun to be issued.