Author Topic: A tale of two 25-06's  (Read 2552 times)

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Offline Fred M

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2006, 06:11:48 AM »
Thechshooter.
Here is the opinion of Dan Lilja.

I have not seen any real reason to use a dry lubricant on bullets as an effort to reduce fouling. With a proper barrel break-in, a top quality lapped barrel, and normal cleaning procedures, fouling just does not appear to be a major problem.

Well there is more to Moly plated bullets than fouling. I have a Lilja BR barrel and use Moly bullets after hundreds of rounds I have yet to see any ill effects with my Hawkeye 22x bore scope.

I did not see any pictures of a 300 Win Mag or what ever. If there is one, was it a factory barrel or a custom barrel, and how was the dry lube applied, how many shots befor any cleaning etc, etc.

Norma bullets in Sweden made extensive tests with moly bullets, and their tests have more credibility then the most I have come accross. As I said here before most people that knock Moly bullets have never used them and quote from hearsay, perverted use or try to elevate their own products usefulness.

If you like to get a real truthful opinion of Moly plated bullets. I sugest to you to contact Dan Hacket a well known precision shooter. You can ask him on Benchrest Central or Extreme accuracy. Or better still send him an e-mail.
danhackett@jvlnet.com
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2006, 07:42:16 AM »
Thechshooter.
Here is the opinion of Dan Lilja.

I have not seen any real reason to use a dry lubricant on bullets as an effort to reduce fouling. With a proper barrel break-in, a top quality lapped barrel, and normal cleaning procedures, fouling just does not appear to be a major problem.

Well there is more to Moly plated bullets than fouling. I have a Lilja BR barrel and use Moly bullets after hundreds of rounds I have yet to see any ill effects with my Hawkeye 22x bore scope.

I did not see any pictures of a 300 Win Mag or what ever. If there is one, was it a factory barrel or a custom barrel, and how was the dry lube applied, how many shots befor any cleaning etc, etc.

Norma bullets in Sweden made extensive tests with moly bullets, and their tests have more credibility then the most I have come accross. As I said here before most people that knock Moly bullets have never used them and quote from hearsay, perverted use or try to elevate their own products usefulness.

If you like to get a real truthful opinion of Moly plated bullets. I sugest to you to contact Dan Hacket a well known precision shooter. You can ask him on Benchrest Central or Extreme accuracy. Or better still send him an e-mail.
danhackett@jvlnet.com

Fred:

Try reading what Jon said..On the dry film "lubricant" abrasive story, it was proven bofroe and in its absence in the Lilja precision .300 Win Mag (bore scope pictures) to be an absolute waste of time.


Moly Fusion isn't a dry film lubricant...it is bonded to the metal...Also..our Handi's aren't the absolute best barrels made...while good...it takes a great deal to even bring them up to close to benchrest standards and then they fall short by a-lot..While some can and do produce sub 1/4" groups routinely...most won't ever achieve thess small of groups...especially in the larger calibers...and since this is the way they are...using Moly-Fuison in my barrel helped reduce fouling on the FIRST application and got easier with each treatment.......This is why I posted this in the first place...it helps Handi shooters clean their barrels out...and did help the consistancy of some of my groups......Nowhere have I seen Jon try to sway anyone using moly to stop and use his product...but on the contrary..say use what they want to...
Quote
I do not knock anyone whatsoever for whatever path on travels, in all civility.
Moly has it rightfull place...and for those choosing to use it this is fine...But the bottom line is...and I'll make a genneralzation here...Most Handi shooters don't use moly...for one reason or another...but I would tend to believe it is for this main reason...one you even stated..
Quote
I paid the price when chronyed unplated bullets in a moly based bore what a job it was to get the barrel clean and reestablish accuracy.
The use of Moly Fusion in a Handi barrel makes this less problematic...and most wouldn't really have a need for using Moly plated bullets...those that do want to will...those that don't ...won't...

I'm not the first to use Moly-Fusion...and I don't think I'll be the last either...Jonathans product will stand on it's on merits without having to ...as you implicated...or try to elevate their own products usefulness.


Jons had quite a-bit of testing done by many people...including some of the long range BR crowd...with some excellent results...and as time goes on...I would expect to see more folks using it...

If I have misread what you said and... your implications aren't what I think they mean..I apologize...but if they are...then perhaps you need to actual try some of it..and see for yourself.I know I will be doing further testing on mine...and saving a boat load of time I would normally be having to spend cleaning....and that's really the bottom line here...at least for me...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Fred M

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2006, 01:52:14 PM »
Mac.
I was not talking about Moly-fusion, I was talking about Moly plated bullets and Moly plated bullet bashing.

I made an inquirey on Bench Rest Central no body that shoots BR is or has used Moly fusion in BR barrels. And since Molyfusion is not new and so good I find that strange.

Here is why, I learnt that from Techshooter. You can read it above.

You cant use it in bores that have fired Moly bullets.
It does not work well in rough bores. (Nothing really does)
It will not help braking in a barrel.
It will not help to smoothen out a barrel with later shooting of bullets.
For it to work best a barrel should be lapped and very smooth.

The above is not applicable when you use Moly plated bullets. I know that for certain because I used several thousands in all kinds of rifles.

Well Mac, when you have  lapped barrels they clean well without anything, so says Dan Lilja. One other thing he says a barrel can be too smooth and he gringes when he hears someone is lapping a bore with 1200 grid. And that is not bashing Moly-Fusion.
 
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2006, 06:58:35 PM »
Fred...

First off...let's make this a little clearer for our fellow Handi-holics shall we...

1) How much does one of Dan's barrels sell for?
2) How much does one of Dan's barrels installed on a Handi rifle cost?
3) How many Handi-holics do you know beside yourself that uses moly as you yourself do?

Now...
4) How much does a "kit" of Moly-Fuison cost?
5) How much does a can of Foaming bore cleaner,a bottle of Barnes CR-10,and a tube of Flitz cost,and 3 over-sized bore mops cost?
6) Amoratize what 3-5 hours of most Handi-holics elbow grease is worth...
7) How much does a Handi-rifle barrel cost installed?


I have a cut rifled barrel on a Handi...it is extreamly smooth...I know...I am the one who polished the durn thing.....but...it still takes well over 1.5 hours to get it clean enough for me...and I am real anal about clean barrels on a Handi...The Moly-Fusioned barrel is a factory produced 25-06 barrel...and it was polished and cleaned..and then treated...and...It cleaned completely in 9 frigging patches...Start to Finish...9 Patches...It isn't a Dan Lilja custom barrel...and it cost me some elbow grease...the aforementioned cleaning supplies...and...$130 dollars...

You are trying to compare a barrel...that...1 cannot be fitted easily to a Handi-Rifle...and in it's own right cost more than a complete Handi...Their barrels are true Hand-lapped...then cut and crowned...a Handi isn't...and while what we do is good...it can in now-way compares to what comes from their factory...I know it...You know it...and everyone else knows it...The Green Mountain barrels are pretty good barrels...so to compare them is apples and bannana's...

I can't help that those BR shooters you are aquianted with haven't heard of Moly-Fusion...and I would bet Dan Lilja  hasn't and probably wouldn't deal with any Handi-Rifle barrels in anyway ...As to his barrels cleaning so easy... I would say that perhaps for his they might not need a-lot of cleaning with certain type bullets...but your not going to...nor will any ever convince me that his barrels won't foul...it ain't going to happen...All barrels will accumalate copper and carbon residue... treated,cryo'd,moly'd,Moly-Fusioned...All barrels will...All steel barrels have voids,pockets,and high and low spots where fouling occures...and unless you change the compisition of the metal during the forming process and completely remove the carbon from it (which no-one has been able too completely)...you will always have these voids...Moly covers them up...Moly-Fusion does too...but does it differently...it is BONDED to the metal molecularly...Moly isn't...

You don't want to believe what it did for me...then don't...I really don't care 1 way or another...but...unless you can put forth the effort and prove me and all the testing I have done with it so-far...then there really isn't anything further to discuss with you on the subject...

Mac

You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Fred M

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2006, 09:08:31 PM »
Mac.
I have read the Moly-fusion instructions as well as you did. I alo read what Techshooter had to say. I never said Moly fusion is no good.  But what has been implied is that I wasted my time for 15 years shooting Moly plated bullets and that is my objection. Moly is not abrasive, it is the carbon in a bore that is abrasive and that is what creates the copper fouling. Not Moly bullets.

I never said that Handi users should use Moly bullets. Nor did I say I do not believe what you said in your test write up. You are obviously happy with Moly-Fusion since you proved to your self it works for you.

I use the same cleaning fluids that you do, yes all my barrels foul and have to be cleaned, never said that they do not, also they clean easy. As you well know, only clean barrel shoot well.

From what I heard here my barrels clean as well, shoot as well, shoot most accuratly as well. Even  the two rebored Handi barrels shoot Moly bullets and clean as well as the barrels treated with Moly-Fusion, and my barrels have been doing that for along time with no harm to the bores. So where does the time wasting come in?

There are many thousands of shooters using Moly bullets world wide and bullet makers supply them if you don't want to do it your self. So I think it is degrading to suggest that their use is an absolute waste of time. End of my story.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2006, 05:44:50 AM »
Quote
So where does the time wasting come in? But what has been implied is that I wasted my time for 15 years shooting Moly plated bullets and that is my objection

When and where have I implied you have been wasting the last 15 years shooting moly?Go back and read what I said...
Quote
I must tell you...Jonathan will advise you not to use any coated bullet with his product..1...you really won't need it...and 2...it may effect the way the Moly Fusioned barrel acts.

Quote
This Moly Fusion is some very slick stuff...and Lubalox isn't easy to clean completely out...it's not as bad as real moly...but durn close...and if you take Jonathan s advice you really don't need to use them anyway with a treated barrel.

What I said was using Lubalox coated both together

What Jonathan said was this...
Quote
Mac, on the follow up I agree with your recommendations as to what you suggest it will not be beneficial for: as in barrels dedicated to Moly-Disulphide rounds for the rest of their lives. I doubt reinventing the process on those dedicated barrels is practical from an expectation now point-of-view.

He said it wouldn't be practicle for you to use it in your moly'd barrels and have any expectations of being better than you are achieving now...How much more honest can you get?


The real time wasting comes in in how many hours it takes me or anyone else with a untreatreated Handi-rifle to clean the damn thing Not about you wasting 15 years shooting moly...



Also it comes in when you shoot regular un-moly'd bullets in a regular moly treated bore
Quote
I paid the price when chronyed unplated bullets in a moly based bore what a job it was to get the barrel clean and reestablish accuracy.

This is the waste of time I spoke of...

As to there being thousands of happy Moly users worldwide...I have no doubt about that...but...again...How many Handi-rifle owners beside yourself use moly like you do...this is afterall the Handirifle forum...is it not?...and this product was used on a unmodified flitzed NEF factory chambered barrel...not on one costing hundreds more...

Am I happy with what the solution did...Yes I am...The product did for me exactly as Jonathan said it would...Do I think it will replace Moly in the BR world...no..As far as I can tell....it wasn't concieved to do that...Do I think it can help Handi-rifle owners spend less time cleaning...absolutly...Do I think the product will improve the rifles over all performance...to some degree yes..but remember...I haven't done any reloading yet...so I can't say with this regard how much improvement it will provide me...I will have a better idea once further testing is done....Do I think it will make a Handi-rifle barrel as good as one of Dan Lilja's custom crafted masterpieces?...Absolutly NOT...I'm not trying to make it into to one...but since I already know it will clean up quicker..shoot cooler...and if it shoots more accuratly with my handloads...then that makes it all the better

So-far...the only person here who has taken offence to the statements made is you...and this is because you have taken what has been said out of context ...Because to say it would be a waste of time for you to use this product in your already moly's barrels isn't saying you have wasted 15 years doing what you have done...It is saying you  probably wouldn't see any improvement...and in all probability it would degrade your performance...so to say it would be a waste of your time to use it in those dedicated moly barrels is a fair conclusion...Jonathan isn't trying to convert Moly users to his product...he has made a totally differnt product for mutiple uses...and this includes firearms...His product has lived up to any claims made by Him...not others using it...Like I said...it will stand on it's own merits..

Mac



You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Fred M

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2006, 07:19:41 AM »
Mac.
By Techshooter

On the dry film "lubricant" abrasive story, it was proven bofroe and in its absence in the Lilja precision .300 Win Mag (bore scope pictures) to be an absolute waste of time.

Do I read anything out of context, according to that every Moly bullet user has wasted his time. That is my argument, not Moly-fusion.

Abrasive story what a crock. For what reason would Techshooter even mention it other than to promote his own product.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline myarmor

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2006, 07:45:00 AM »
I'm not stepping in the middle of all this. But I do want to say that I appreciate the offer Johnathan has made. Thank you.
 I'll probably take you up on it soon. I also told a friend about it and he wants to learn more about the benifits of Moly-Fusion as well. So you will probably be hearing from me in a week or so.

It sounds like Johnathan is proud of his product and he stands by it. Not a gimic to make a quick buck off of. Why else has he spend so much time on it, and offering it at such a low price?
I believe this product definately has it's place. And I would like to try it out in my small bore varmint rifles. I don't believe it to be a cure all, but nothing ever is.
And he is a sponser and stands by his product. I think he has the right to support it.




Offline Mac11700

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2006, 08:39:25 AM »
Mac.
By Techshooter

On the dry film "lubricant" abrasive story, it was proven bofroe and in its absence in the Lilja precision .300 Win Mag (bore scope pictures) to be an absolute waste of time.

Do I read anything out of context, according to that every Moly bullet user has wasted his time. That is my argument, not Moly-fusion.

Abrasive story what a crock. For what reason would Techshooter even mention it other than to promote his own product.


Yes Fred....you did take that out of context.....In that barrel...under that test...it was in Jon's opinion to be a total waste of time....Did he catagorically state for ALL MOLY USERS EVERYWHERE IT WOULD BE A WASTE OF TIME...no...of course he didn't...

You have been against this product from the start...since it isn't your beloved Nacco processed moly coated bullets...and 1 other thing...anytime you introduce a dry powder to the outside of a bullet by any process...it becomes abrasive to some degree....and before you head off on this...I'm not saying it's like 60 grit sandpaper going down the bore...but merely it becomes to some degree abrasive...because it in itself is dragging across the bore..Moly-Fusion as stated becomes part of the metal by molecular bonding to it...he didn't try to reinvent the wheel here.....What part of this are you not understanding?

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Fred M

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2006, 01:20:24 PM »
Mac.
You have a way of white washing the subject, inundating with superfluous writ. You win I loose. No hard feelings I like a good duel of words. Lets call it a day :)
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline techshooter

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2006, 07:32:05 PM »
Fred, while you like a war of words, you are mistaken in your initial gut reaction on reading that line. I wrote the following first, but I think it is still important to set you straight, and state and affirm with Mac I did not mean to infer Moly-Disulphide users as you felt I intended at first.

I apologize its taken a while for me to get back on this.

I think the product kits comes with sufficient temper with reality.

I was personally offended, naturally, when the statement is made inferring I am being bad to pump up sales. With the actual statement, that is. I hope you can infer otherwise when you finsih reading this.

Simply because that is not what I intended.

In reality any process and person that coexists before or after Moly-Fusion, is good, then it is what it is.
 
I was referring to the old testimonials on the page,  Mac quoted from, partly in anticipation to Mac’s questions, and for anyone else who clicked on that page per chance, wondering what 1998 was all about. Referencing one of the two pages at Shooter Solutions it is at is http://www.shootersolutions.com/1997testsmf.html, but the other, which included 1998 at   http://shootersolutions.com/blackpowder.html.

That 1997 result helps tell the picture on how to get additional accuracy from a treatment and also in addition what it will not do. 10 years old, but useful. It’s posted because it is useful, and because it was blind, so there was no expectation of results from the shooters with regard to increase in accuracy on the good side, and key-holing all over the place is what it is.

The pages I refer on the borescope start at: http://www.shootersolutions.com/borefouling.html available from an internet search. The specific circumstances, barrel make, including the process of each time before borescope entry, to explain why the after borescope picture was so ridiculously clean. And this was an independent test in California, not by me. Note it was Moly-Coated bullets by themselves and not on top of copper, though the fouling after treatment is more quantity of powdered material with Moly-Coated bullets than with copper.

With respect to what Mac testifies, that result is reasonable too, keeping in mind it is .300 Win Mag, not 25-06.

I bet borescope pictures to print would have been spectacular at the point of after the same amount of time to clean each, and certainly the picture of 5 hours of intense scrubbing and cleaning, scrubbing and cleaning is not a pretty sight.

In one phone messages Mac left right afterwards was "Good Stuff man, Good Stuff" ... "Cleans up like a breeze" 'Great Stuff man."

In any case, Moly-Fusion is what it is, and truth is the truth like it always is, and I would prefer you not to bash me when I fail to bash other things, and pointing out the differences is not the same thing as bashing, but only observing there is a difference letting others draw their own conclusions.

In any case it is what it is.

Like Mac pointed out, there is a difference between the two, as you yourself pointed out.

If you realize I was referring the posts on the first page I read from 1998 Mac pulled the blackpowder result from, I hope you will be laughing you thought I was referring to Moly Disulphide users.
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Offline Fred M

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2006, 07:13:48 AM »
Techshooter.
I thought we were all through with the subject. My comment below was strictly a question in an inquiry not an insult. I have nothing against you or your product.
If you felt insulted that was not my intent. I am sorry for that.

Abrasive story what a crock. For what reason would Techshooter even mention it other than to promote his own product.
Is it not a good question taken from your quote?

Mac and I did not have a war but a duel, there is a big difference.  If you read all my posts you will find that I never bad mouthed Moly-Fusion.

The abrasions come about when when words become misconstrued and elaborated to no end. Well that's the trouble with writing, when talking you only listen to what you like to hear. Beside when english is your second language it becomes even worse.

Have a good day and forget a bout the verbal contest. Next winter I will buy some Moly-fusion while in the US, though I have limited use for it.
Fred M
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Offline techshooter

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2006, 01:39:11 PM »
I accept your apology, since in your last response, I've noted here you said no foul was intended, in the manner of the conclusion of the duel of words as you say.

I apologize if you did not expect to get a response from me too, but I think it will be understood by many why I wanted to clear up the confusion in fact as opposed to maybe. And in the manner of "duel" and "gnetleman" and "tradition" why I will want to express a few words in commentary on it, since it was my words that was the object of the duel, and I guess you thought you were dueling in your honor, which were words fired at my honor, albeit to Mac at me as you last quoted.

Quote
No hard feelings I like a good duel of words. Lets call it a day
Fred M, I myself anyway understand, and understood the meaning of what duel is. Perhaps you don't. A duel is a war of an offended party (in this case you were throwing the glove or gauntlett attacking me to Mac) to get back one's honor, in a gentlemanly way, and was often to the death, or a death resulted, even in early US history.

I realize you yourself thought I was throwing the glove at you, and that was a misunderstanding on your part, and for which I took responsibility for by not being clear enough. In the process of the fight, though, I was being attacked and the glove was thrown at me.

The online dictionary says A duel is a formalized type of combat in which two individuals participate. They usually develop out of a desire for one party (the challenger) to redress a perceived insult to his honor by the other participant in the duel. Duels may be distinguished from trials by combat, in that the outcome of a duel was not believed to indicate guilt or innocence, and duels were not official procedures. Typically, duels have been fought between members of the same social class, especially members of more priveliged classes. Duelling is now illegal in all but a few countries around the world. Duels could be fought with some sort of sword or, from the 18th Century on, with pistols. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel

So a duel is a War. Perhaps you meant hearty interchange of words. (Same thing.) You might have been misinformed English is a second language for me, but I am familiar with English words.

I suggest you know rightly well the correlation between my statement and your preceding one, in the context of what "duel" means.


And so, I have the right as a person, company, and sponsor to say "hey."

Quote
The abrasions come about when when words become misconstrued and elaborated to no end. Well that's the trouble with writing, when talking you only listen to what you like to hear.
Fred M, that cuts both ways, because your "question" is word-contructed in the traditional form of a statement. It is like an executive order. If is a statement that stands if the statement is not defended against with diligence. However stating it was intended to be a question or a rhetorical remark intending to be a question and not an allegation is great. It brings great verbal clarity to it.

In other words your response indicates to someone who doesn't know you what you meant.

Also, in the written statements as they read in print, sound as if you were confused as to my meaning of words, to which I apologized.

As to language, I presume that is a dueling word at my understanding of English. I do not write with the intent for classical perfect Queen's or King's English Grammatical structure - being from the States and all. ;) It is what it is. In fact though, English is my first language: spoken-wise at least.

So keep in mind if you attack a Sponsor personally and call it a duel, if it is truly the start of a duel, then don't act surprised if the sponsor to responds to the personal attack wordsl in a gentlemanly way, as in the definition of the word "duel" as amongst aristocratic nobleman of the days of yesterday, whom did not hide under a rock, which is not in the definition of "duel", but more like "snail." I was going to use the "w" word, but that might be inflammatory.

I look forward to hearing from you when you come to the States, as you state.

Have a great Friday!

Cheers!

Jonathan.
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Offline Fred M

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2006, 03:16:52 PM »
Thechshooter.
Wow! And again wow! I am floored! I am simply out of breath! My head hurts! :o

How could any one in his wildest dreams ever prognosticate such an assiduious commentary?

Here is my favrorite German proverb. "In der Kürze liegt die Würze" that is in my first language. ;D

Thanks for the elaborate clarification. Since I am somewhat english challenged I not quite sure I understood all.

Fred M
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2006, 03:28:31 PM »
Hmmm, Brevity is the soul of wit or In briefness lies the spice or be concise; don't ramble!! ;D

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Mac11700

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2006, 07:21:22 PM »

Well now that everyone has waxed eliquently here ;)...We should get on with discussing the products merits..I would like to see some other testing done with this product.Especially on the smaller bores...unfortunatly I don't have any to use to do this..but I am sure someone else might like to step up to the plate and give it a go.

I am not finished with my test for the 25-06 quite yet...I just got a couple boxes of the 120 grain Fusion ammo..(that was supposed to be here for the first test >:() but didn't arrive until today..Also I'll be using several different handloads..including some fine 125 grain Wildcat ULDRB bullets  to work up( thanks to nomosendaro) and a varied assortment of the usual bullets to try thru it...Once this is completed and my Ultra 26" NEF 270 Winchester is safely back home...we will be giving it the full treatment as well...and the entire bullet wieght line will be tried thru it in a before and after test...and even some very special solids no longer produced...

So...now that being said...let's see some folks with the 17's....204's...223's...and 243's...give it a shot... and see just how good it works with them as well...How about it?

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...