RECOIL REDUCTION...FOREND WEIGHT...DON'T ADD WEIGHT

[NFG]

WARNING...RED FLAG...TOTAL DISASTER...DON'T ADD WEIGHT!!!!!

I posted the things I did to add weight to my 45-70 BC and one of the things was to use a Gunstocks,Inc varminter forend and put an additional 16 oz of lead in it.  DON'T ADD ANY WEIGHT TO THE FOREND.

MY FOREND JUST SNAPPED OFF THE BARREL MOUNTING STUD!!!!!! and tossed the bullet into my target top support blowing it all to HE**.

  The original forend weighs 5.9 OZ, the Gunstock, Inc weighs about 15 oz and the modified forend weighed 1 lb 15.4 oz.

Tim or Mac1100;  You might post this information in a sticky for future reference if it already isn't there.  Thanks

The forend mounting stud is attached to the barrel by 4 small spot welds about 1/8" dia so the additinal weight was too much for them to handle.  Looks like I will be in downtime while I send the rig back for a new barrel.  I just fired off a 3 shot group, almost perfect equilatera triangle just barely touching with a new box of Hornady 300 gr, seated out just a bit more.  I won't find another barrel like this one again.

  NFG

[quickdtoo]

No it's not in the FAQ cuz no one has ever added weight to the forend that I can recall. Thanks for the heads up, tho.

Tim

[Steve in Michigan]

I added probably about 8 ounces to my forend and put the weight behind the forend screw. I would agree that 16 ounces is too much to add to the forend. Has anybody hsd the same experience with less weight?

[Fred M]

Solder the stud back on and drill and tap two 8-32 flat head counter sunk screws into the barrel.
Warning do not weld the stud. J-B weld can be used with good fitting.

[NFG]

Nice picture, Fred, thanks.   How deep is the slot, th holes and what caliber did you do this too?

I measured the wall to be about 0.1815" thick at that point.  8-32 has a pitch of 0.031" and 8-40 0.025".  Going 0.080" deep to get 3 threads for the 8-40 would make it a bit thin under the holes.

I have both Hi Force solder, JB Weld and heat paste.  I've soldered on front and rear sights but not studs.    Amazing how doing one thing doesn't necessarily tranfer to something similar but different and more apropos... " Mo'hedz-Mo'betta". 

Thanks for the "Think about it".  Sure would like to TIG it back on, but that would put a definite bump inside the bore. 

Enjoy  NFG


Tim Or Mac1100.  Is there anyway you can delete that paragraph about the forend on the "recoil reduction" topic?  If so...Please do...the less that paragraph is read the better I will feel.  I tried to delete it but it wouldn't let me.

Thanks again  NFG

[quickdtoo]

You did delete it, your post is in the trash can, I can't resurrect it, but I can copy it and send to you in a pm for you to modify and repost if you want. Just so ya know, you can also edit your own posts with the modify button.

Let me know,

Tim

[Fred M]

I go 4- 5 threads 8-4o or 10-30 .125 that still leaves you 0.056. The barrel pressure at that point is no more than 20k or less on an 1/8" bridge that amounts to practically nothing. The screws are only to resist the the lug bolt to hold the forearm other than that the screws are in shear, assisted by the solder. That makes for a stronger installation than the origional.


The barrel is an octagon made from a 24" 223 Handi bull barrel. The lug you see is custom made to make up for the lost thickness. The screws are #10. The caliber is either 257 Roberts or 6x47 both have the same lug.

[NFG]

Thanks again Fred.  I was guessing the pressure was fairly low at that point in the barrel.  The area of the screw hole is on the order of 0.0177 sq in, so even at 50,000 psi the pressure on that same area is about 900 psi.  I've seen site base holes with thinner cross sections on a few barrels, plus the screw threads hold on also.  Again, thanks for the input.

That is a very nice looking .243. Who, where, how, did you get the octagon barrel made. I would suspect it shoot very well to boot.  I need to get a digital camera!!!!   I kept looking at the picture and thinking "that sure looks like an octagon barrel" but my mind was elsewhere and it just didn't gel.  I also keep looking at the laminated pieces and probably will end up with a couple of rifles with the cinnamon and the gray colosr.

 My gun rack looks like someone tossed a bucket of mixed paint in it with all the different colors I have already on my other rifles and shotguns, along with the fiberglass paintjobs.  Come to think about it I have a couple of motorcycle helmets with the same problem....I LIKE IT!!! 

I have a drill, tap and screws on order and I have a couple of thoughts to try out on the lathe and mill while I wait.  One problem with living out in the boonies, it's a long haul to town and the town is small, so getting anything involves the "BigBrownTruck".  Good thing he likes my home made raspberry jelly, I get special treatment. 

And, Tim, thanks also.  I wanted that post to go away so it wouldn't happen to anyone else, but the information would still be available in the other post.  I hit the delete button but didn't close out and reopen so see if it worked.  I need to clean up the other post also, so I will try the modify button. 

I was also wondering just how much the NEF OEM laminated forends weigh?  Can anyone weigh one and maybe a Gunsight Inc forend also?  Might be a good idea to mention the possibility happening to a heavier than normal laminated forend and doing some lightening milling to bring the OEM weight down below 1 pound. 

Just a thought.  Not a problem if you don't mess around with things.

Enjoy  NEF

[Fred M]

NEF or NFG.
NFG I would not use. You know what that stands for

What you see on the picture is all hand made by my self. The stocks are reshaped from H&R ultra stocks. I made the octagon barrels in my friends machine shop on a milling machine. Only the checkewring on the stocks was made by a friend.   My eys are no more good enough for that. Yes these two rifles shoot well, both shoot under 1/2" with three shots.

Yo can read all about both guns and a lot of other stuff on my web page.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/ZERMEL/indexcont.html

The little miniscule button on any of my posts will get my page also.

Note. You can clamp the stud in a vise and weld a piece of steel to both end to allow for more width on the screw head. But for heavens sake do not weld on the barrel, you woud ruin it.

[NFG]

Oh, my...what would you call that?  A Freudian slip or fax paux.  And, yes, that's what NFG stands for.  Another play on words.

I wondered what that little world was.  So...that's who your are.  Nice to meet you, thank you very much.  I've visited your page 1 many times, and it was on my favorites before one of Win 98 famous melt downs took away all my good "stuff".  Still don't like the smell of burned cereal, tho'.  You have a very nice site full of good information and I see you like "Catt'n'" around also.  You have me thinking more of doing a octagon barrel.  I have a short, heavy .223 barrel that doesn't shoot worth a hoot that would be a very good training device.  Doing an octagon barrel is one of the future projects for a XP-100 receiver I have laying around.

I made a mount out of 1/2" key stock today and it is JB welding as we speak.  While I was digging around in my setup tool drawer I came across a package from Brownells full of taps, drills, and screws, all 8-40.  After a nap I remembered I had ordered them for another project that got side tracked and forgotten while I was doing the recovery thing down south.  The upshot is I will have the barrel ready tomorrow...or Friday anyway.  I'm thinking of putting another post out toward the end also and adding a pillar to the forend.  That might be enough to support the exta weight in the forend and I won't have to mill out all that good lead.  Might just use the OEM mount with #6 screws just for spite.

Isn't this sport amazing.  Always something to play with and think about. 

Enjoy  NFG

[Fred M]

NFG.
Faute de mieux usage faux pas. Yes a social blunder not the other Freudian slip.
I doubt he would have ever used it.

My advise is to get rid of the -- ------- ---- lead in the forearm. I get the idea that such a front heavy rifle be hard to shoot off hand and very slow to swing for a fast shot in the woods. It wont be smooth. But then you could put a couple of wheels under it and shoot it like a canon, huh?

I am glad you enjoyed my page. I have several more write ups in progress. But I have a color problem with pictures with my new Windows Xp. Besides I have been working on my own Website to get rid of the advertising, I get nothing out of except free web hosting.

I use my own Excel program to design an octagon barrel. Any other way is a most time consuming endevor. The progam allows for excact weight distribution and total weight for any bore or caliber rifle. Calculates flats and dimensions. across flats.

A milling machine should have an dividing/indexing head. 40 revolution for 360 deg. 5 revs = 45 deg. Variable motor driven advance makes for a very smooth cuts.

Or you can do it the old fashioned way with a draw file and a protractor, one of my friends has done several this way.

[Mac11700]

NFG:

I'm with Fred on this one...I would loose the forward lead...and install the heavier mercury recoil reducers or additional weight in the stock.If I wanted weight forward...I would look to modify it..to accommodate actual barrel weights as some of the schutzen rifles or Olympic rifles have..Granted you would have to tailor your loads to it..but I think it would be easier to accomplish than simply adding weight to the forearm..

As too putting a additional pillar attachment for the forearm..the salient point to remember is this is a break action..and that additional stress (ie weight) on the barrel will effect the forces applied on the lock up of the rifle....even though you may a good lock up now..

While I applaud your gumption..My own personal opinion is to make the Buff more weight forward than it already is....is not a endeavore I would undertake.Utilizing Fred's action to barrel bedding method..and shimming the barrel till you have as little headspace will prove more beneficial as far as accuracy that any attempt of trying to balance a long barreled single shot.Widen the recoil pad add additional weight and add sometype of soft cheek rest area will enable you to shoot the rifle to much higher levels possible...than just balancing the whole thing out...or shooting it in it's stock form.

I know you got some good accuracy from it..and in the event you have to get another one..I wouldn't stress over it too much...most Buff's are exceedingly accurate with the right loads..Try some of the Nosler 300 grain Partitions and H4198/Rem 9-1/2 primers and a good strong crimp...you might find a 1 hole 5 shot group lurking in there...

Good Luck with your project..and I hope your barrel repair works out for you...

Mac

[NFG]

I just noticed I've been leaving a digit out of your moniker, Mac11700.  Sorry. 

I think you're both right about the extra weight forward.  My mind was on only part of the problem...recoil reduction... and not thinking through the full extent of action/reaction.  It did balance the Buff muzzle heavy the way I like my rigs to handle.  Still...you won't know for sure unless you, or someone else, tries.  The extra weight dampens out the pulse beats and makes for a smooth, slow swing, definitely not a whipper snapper, but it really isn't to begin with. Sits real nice in the small bag on the benchrest, tho'.

I need to leave the wheels at home, some of my hunting buddy's already think I think too much.  Don't want to get them nervous so they have a built in excuse for a missed shot.

I haven't tried Nosler Part's yet but they are on my short list.  I've tried RL-7 - high velocity but large groups with Hornady and Speer 300's and Speer 400's.  IMR 4895 - up there with the velocity and groups in the 2" range, plus or minus half inch, with a full, slightly compressed load and IMR 4198 doing the very best with the 300 Hornady so far.

No way to play with seating so changing the load and then primers is about all as far as loads are concerned.  WW cases weigh 30 gr less than RP cases but the RP produced the better groups.  I going to wear out something before I get a decent load worked up.

I hope the fix works also.  If the JB doesn't work,  I'm gonna have a mess to clean up and start again.  Sorta like someone brasing a broken part then bringing it to me wanting a nice pretty weld job and wondering why the price just tripled.

Fred...I would give anything or do anything to have CNC machines and all the nice thingy's.   As it is I'm just barely above draw filing.  If I had to draw file a barrel I would turn into evil incarnate in a New York second.  New borns would try to run when the saw me.  While I'm not a wild man by any stretch of the imagination, any long time milling or lathe jobs and I have to go out and run around with the dog every hour or so, otherwise the hair on my bald head would look like a 60's Fro'. .  Can't spell either, can I?

Breakfast is over and time to get to work.

Enjoy  NFG

[Bear Rider]

I have the B/C, and in it's stock configuration it is nowhere near as muzzle heavy as the flintlock rifles that I shoot. With practice, these guns shoot magnificently offhand. That barrel just hangs out there like it's on a rest. I for one will be watching the results of this mod with great interest.

Please keep us posted.

[NFG]

Hello, hello, 'Sup, dudes?     For what it's worth I finally got my BC back together and fired off a dozen rounds of different weight bullets from 300 to 400 gr, all of which I loaded up prior to my wreck.

The forend is still attached I'm proud to say...for how long...who know's.   

I posted the forend weight somewhere else on this forum but here it is again to stay with the link;

Forend's finished weight is 1 lb 5 oz.   It lost 11 oz on it's diet.   

The BC weighs 11 lbs and change.  It still balances great but feels a lot lighter for some reason, still sucks up the recoil.   Now all I have to do is get the trigger down just a tad more and all will be well.

I even got a wild hair and finished the milling and installed the barrel studs on my TC Encore 22-250 SS barrel and it's forend is in the process of being bedded, AND, I  put my HB 223 Handi back together and ordered a scope mount and hammer extension for it.  Man, I don't know what's in my coffee but whatever it is, it's GOOD.

Neither the Encore barrel or the Handi 223 ever shot very well.  The Encore is on it's 3 barrel and they all were throated way too long, 0.200" jump for a 55 gr Sierra FB at the normal 2.35" length.  The Handi would do 1" but nothing smaller so I just stopped wasting money on it.  I will set it up for around the place out to 150 yards or so and use up the rest of the partial boxes of bullets on the self, work up a good 40 gr load and call it good.

Enjoy  NFG