Impact points

[z_biker]

We have covered practice, practice and practice. In everyones opinion, what should we aime at?

Of course the gun of choice being the S&W 642 .38 special and attackers being at around 4 feet away.
As an example, head shot, neck shot, or torso shot...........

z

[rockbilly]

Without question, if you ever get to the point that you must use a firearm to defend yourself and the person is only four feet away, then there is only one shot, point at center mass, and continue to pull the trigger until the threat is eliminated.

At that range, you do not have time to take aim and place a shot to the head, throat, etc.  But first, you should strive to prevent a threat from getting that close.  I know that is not always possible, that is why I recommend center mass shots.

[vicspank]

That's right center mass.The center of what ever the bad guy exposes to you.Chances are it will be lowlight ,dim or dark,you will probably only see light and dark shadow's.You most likely will not have time to aim at anything muchless see your sites,especially at 4 feet you probably won't have time to raise your gun at eye level.Gun type doesn't matter.Point shooting stratagey's are a must in self defense shooting.Along with acting out senerio's and imaging.

                                 vicspank

[z_biker]

The draw and fire from the front pocket should take 1/2 sec. or less.
You have low light conditions on your side also, as well as surprise. An aimed shot to the neck might still be the best bet for two attackers.

The .38 Sp. being what it is does not lend itself to piercing heavy bones, ribs, and muscle. Even the skull might deter the 38. The neck is soft but a small target for sure.

Is reaching major organs in the chest is iffy?

z

[Dusty Miller]

Right you are Z ,and that's why I urge folks to carry a gun with some WHALLOP.  Yeah, bullet placement is primary, but just think how much better off you'll probably be if you hit CM with a 230 JHP at short range rather then a 125-150 gr. bullet of any type (from the .38 Spec.).  It only makes sense to me. 

[z_biker]

I can not argue with that!

I have tried many different carry guns from a .22 Beretta M21A to a .45 Glock 30. For a long time it was a 9mm Glock 26. The only one that seemed to be with me all the time was the S&W 642 carried Florida style. So when needed, more than likely, I am stuck with the .38 Sp.

BTW Florida style is front pocket of shorts with a handkerchief over the  gun to break the outline.

z

[rockbilly]

z-biker,  It is a proven fact that a perp can cover a 15-20 distance before the average person can draw and fire their gun.  If you have you gun in your hand prepared to fire you are lucky, at best, to make a stopping shot and prevent injury to yourself if the perp is only four feet away.  Taking aim is totally out of the question, the only shot you have is CENTER MASS while praying that it is a one shot stopping hit.  AS vicspank said, most situation that require you to draw the weapon occur at night or in low light peoiods (the snakes come out at night), this futher justifys the point to shoot CENTER MASS shot over any other shot.  Like Dusty, I like a larger bore on my carry gun, but on occassion I am required to carry something small.  Following is some information of self defense firearms.
 
The most commonly used caliber for self defense with a handgun is still the .38 Special.  Unless I can be proved wrong, I will stick with that.  The bottom of the barrel for caliber that I would suggest is the .380 ACP caliber.  The beginner should probably stay with a .38 Special, double action revolver.  Because it is simple to use.  It has no safeties, no decocking levers and no slide to use and has manageable recoil.  For the more experienced gun handler, I would suggest the .357 magnum double action revolver, the .40 S&W semi-auto pistol or the venerable .45 ACP.  The most effective cartridge in a handgun for self defense right now is the .357 magnum with a 125 grain jacketed hollow point bullet.  However, I think the .40 S&W with a 130 grain jacketed hollow point is a close second place.  Certainly the .45 ACP has its place near the top in the self defense arena too!!  The 9mm is certainly a viable choice, however, you must realize that the "one shot stop" ratio for many 9mm cartridges is 60% to 70%.  Don't be fooled by the greater magazine capacity of many 9mm handguns.  Government intrusions into public liberty have limited such firearms to 10 shot magazines in some states.
 
Here is a chart of the approximate percentages of one-shot stops.  Bullet styles and weights will vary these numbers and these are approximations only.  For the definitive study on the subject, check out the book called Handgun Stopping Power by Evan Marshall.
 
.22 Long Rifle 35%
.22 Magnum 40%
.25 ACP 45%
.32 ACP 63%
.380 70%
.38 Special 83%
9 MM 91%
.40 95%
.357 Magnum 96%
10 MM 92%
.45 ACP 95%

 
       

[Mikey]

That's why I stuff my 38s with the 200 gn swc - it got 'whallop'! 

Interesting bit of information about those charts showing what percentages of 1-shot stops you get with different calibers - the list never included the 200 gn 38 and most certainly never included that weight bullet in the swc configuration.  Lot of folk forget how effective the 38 Spl became when they began loading swc bullets - it didn't have to go any faster, just the shape of the bullet was changed to improve the stopping power - but yet we now have the fast, faster and even super fast lightweight stuff that would probably not penetrate muscle and bone lends credence to z-bikers statements.  JMHO.  Mikey.

[rockbilly]

Mikey.  I think the information is FAIRLY accurate, but the book is dated and with new poweds and loads being developed every day it may be off slightly, but it is a good measureing tool.

[vicspank]

Rockbilly,well said.Also that data is for one shot stops.Not to be confused with one shot kill's.Never shoot to kill or wound.You shoot to stop the attack.If he die's that's his problem.What a bullet will do once it penetrate's,is anybody's guess.That's why center mass is the best option.Another good book is(Combat Handgunnery)by Chuck Karwan.

                                         vicspank

[z_biker]

Been searching the web, for .38 200 gr. SWC factory ammo, with no luck.

Do they even make factory ammo in that weight or is it a handload only round?

z

[vicspank]

I don't think so.It would take a .357 mag to push that weight with any authority unless it was at a very close range.A study was done by a detective(forgot who),that states of all the .38 sp loads that were consistant performers time and time again in investigations was the 130 gr+P hollow point.Close to 1,000 fps and almost 300 fpe.Anything more than 158 gr,Just go to a .357.I'm a firm beleiver in don't make your gun do somthing it was not made to do.If you want a hot 9mm,go to a .40.If you want a hotter .38,go to a .357.If you want a hotter .357,go to a .357 Sig.etc.Just my opinion and experiance.

                                        vicspank

[Mikey]

rockbilly - well said, thank you.

z-biker:  The old Winchester factory load for a 200 gn bullet is over 3.8 gns of 231 powder for 770'/sec at 15.5K cup.  I purchase my 200 gn swc bullets fro either Colorado Cast Bullets or Mt. Baldy Bullets.  This is a very accurate load from all my snubbies, every 38 spl I have fired them through and my 357s. 

vicspank - the 200 gn load is an older one that is just about one notch up the power scale from the old British 38-200, which Charles Askins used and often wrote about.  In his later life as a LEO, he used either a 4" Colt 38 spl with those loads or a 45 acp with 230 gn ball.  He considered both effective manstoppers.  I believe the Winchester factory finally dropped the old 200 gn bullet from its loading list when the popularity of lighter weight hollowpoints became vogue.  HTH.  Mikey.

[rockbilly]

These are are few more points to ponder before being caught in a situation where you "might" have to use a firearm. We could debate this from many differenr angles, so I will try to just give the basic facts as I see them.

Of course the safest path to follow is not putting yourself in a situation where self defense is needed.  NO SANE LAW-ABIDING PERSON GOES LOOKING FOR TROUBLE. Just because a law-abiding Citizen chooses to carry a concealed firearm in public, DOES NOT mean that he/she is looking for trouble.  In fact, most law-abiding citizens who carry a concealed firearm find themselves MORE willing to put up with verbal assault and obstinate behavior than if they had no gun with them at all.

If someone is acting violently or is a potentially violent person and begins to verbally assault you, do all you can to avoid the situation.  Appease them, walk away, avoid eye contact, avoid conversation and don't get involved if you can help it.  Faking being a coward is quite a bit better than having to take someone's life.  You would more than likely be prosecuted or at least initially charged with a crime, if you're forced to kill the person.  Believe me, unless you're being unavoidably assaulted, faking cowardice is a pretty good idea.

Be aware of signs that show that the person is about to do you harm.  Here are some things you should look for:

Penetrating Eye To Eye Contact
Clenched Fists
Tears
Heavy Breathing
Flushed Or Red Face And Neck
Sweating
An Inability To Speak Correctly (Stuttering or Slurring)

You might be able to diffuse the situation by:

Carefully Listening To Their Complaint Or Argument
Trying To See Things From Their Point Of View
Trying To Ask Them Pertinent Questions
Telling Them What You Think Their Position Is
Repeat Their Demands Back To Them Showing Them That You Are Listening
Speak in a calm voice with even tones

You might think that attempting to diffuse the situation before utilizing self defense measures seems like cowardice, but it's not cowardice, it's being smart and that's part of a total package of self defense.
 
It is essential that you know who is in your home and where they are at any given time.  Many unexpected and unannounced sleepovers have ended in tragedy.
 
It is essential that you positively identify a potential threat in your home first.

Do not leave your safe room and go about the home looking for suspects unless you are well trained to do so.  Watching a lot of television dramas and movies is NOT proper training.

Never shoot an intruder to scare him or wound him.  If you are justified in shooting an intruder, you must ONLY shoot to stop the attack.  If the intruder dies as a result of you stopping the attack, that is his problem. (My attorney advises, "Shoot to Kill.  A dead man can not testify against you in a court of law.)
 
The best place to send a bullet to stop an attack is the center of the intruder's chest, nowhere else.  It is the biggest target area and contains the heart, aorta, pulmonary arteries and many other items important to proper bodily function.
Many people who don't know anything about self defense shooting, have said "...shoot them in the knee."  I have to laugh.  Not even the most well trained individual, during the heat of a mortal attack can properly aim a firearm at a knee cap.  More commonly, an entire firearm is emptied and the intruder may be hit once or twice.
 
This is a little known fact:  Between 20% and 25% of police shootings result in the death of the law breaker.  The person being shot has a 75% to 80% chance of survival with a single bullet wound to the chest area.  This is mostly because of the advanced medical techniques available today and the duty of the officer to give that help immediately.
 
Remember, that the estate of a dead intruder cannot sue for as much money as a wounded intruder can.  I got this tip from a lawyer fully versed in self defense and firearm law.  So take it as you will.

14 out of 15 times, the criminal will retreat when confronted with an armed and determined homeowner.  In only 6.7% of self defense incidents is a shot even fired.  The conflict can be resolved 93.3% of the time simply with armed and determined resistance.
 
It is my opinion that the next thing a person of prudent judgment does after obtaining a Concealed Carry License is to seek out and become familiar with a good attorney versed to defending self protection cases.  If there is no one in your immediate area that has such experience, then seek out a former State or County District Attorney, rarely does a city (maybe a big city DA does) attorney have the experience to defend you.
 

[vicspank]

Rockbilly,are you an instructor or LEO.You sound very knowladgeable.I am A Certified Personal Protection and Pistol instructor but I have to say I disagree strongly with just one of your comments.Fakeing being a coward.I live in a crime ridden part of town where you have to watch your back consistantly,allways in the yellow if you know what I mean,and most of the time orange.I have had to alomost pull  5 times in the last year alone.Bad guys don't want a hard time,peroid.They want easy pickin's.Look like a sheep,and you will be eatin by wolves.ALL
5 times,they new a good run was better than a bad stand.My wife has been beaten and robbed at her place of employment just down the street.They won't let them carry on the job.She works in a gas station -conveinent mart.Our high school has it's own precinct because of the gang violence.Faking being a coward here will get you killed and or raped.Don't get me wrong,the gun does'nt make you a tough guy,but,I have proved over and over that confidense and standing your ground will avoid a situation more and hopefully never have to pull your gun.
             vicspank

[rockbilly]

I hold two degrees in Criminology, spent a couple of years as a Texas Game Warden, 24 years active duty military,  and have done extensive study in preparation for certification as an instructor for the Texas Concealed License, there is also a number of years (almost 70) on which I draw form past experiences.
 
While I don't always advocate acting as a coward, this tactic is recommended by several of the more knowledgeable people in this field including the FBI.  Assuming the cowardly posture at the fist point will often give the bad guy a sense of superiority that he has already won, and he may walk away.  If they don't, then it is time to deal with the situation in a more convincing manner.  Often today's experienced vicious thugs will smell your fear like an animal, and act accordingly, therefore, you should remain in the orange condition even while displaying a cowardly side.
 
At my age, I consider myself to be a prime target to the wannabe bad guy.  I try to avoid those places that may put me in a dangerous situation, but when it is necessary to be there, I am prepared.  Staying in yellow condition all of the time, and going to orange in less than a heart beat.  I try keep my hand on my firearm at all times, when I sense a threatening feeling, the safety comes off, and I am ready for a red condition.
 
From your  code yellow and code orange, I take it that you are a fan of Jeff Cooper.  I had the pleasure of attending one of his training sessions at Gunsite, AZ many years ago while in the military.  While I don't agree totally with all of his opinions, he book is a very good study reference for the armed citizen.

[vicspank]

I'm a fan of Cooper's to a certain extint.Im (50) so i'm kinda set to the old way's such as single action as he.I'm not a fan of so called (plastic gun's)allthough,you can't knock technology or we wouldn't be on these computer's.LOL.It's good to see coments from someone with good experiance for a change.I very much enjoy this thread.

                                                           vicspank

[vicspank]

Speaking of Jeff Cooper,he died yesterday in AZ,He was 86.

                                           vicspank

[z_biker]

So, it looks like a clear division between being able to reason with a bad guy / the bad guy covering 21 feet in a blink of an eye to put a Craftsman screw driver in you?

LOL, the Craftsman screw driver has a better warranty than my Smith. Go figure!

z

[DEPUTY]

out the book called Handgun Stopping Power by Evan Marshall.



good for toliet paper!
 that book was  picked apart as was his and sannows shooting data