Author Topic: 35 whelen (Read 2674 times)

fatercat · « **on:** September 25, 2006, 05:40:00 PM »

I am a gun nut. i have hunted the elk states and have a 379 b&c elk on my wall. i am past the 60th birthday. the reason for this post is this--as all elk hunters we are looking for the best elk rifle. i am a left hand shooter. remington does not offer a left hand 35 whelen, so i bought a right hand 35 whelen and a lefty 30-06. had my gun smith switch barrels and now i have a left hand 35 whelen. sold the '06.-- i worked up a load with 225 gn at over 2800 fps. i have the new rifle fever. checking the charts, i can not find any cal that can top this load . any thoughts?

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #1 on:** September 26, 2006, 12:29:37 PM »

I thought you're supposed to check the charts BEFORE working up a load?

225 grain bullet steaming along at 2800+ fps from a Whelen? That seems a bit warm. Although Nosler Custom offers factory loads (ain't that an oxymoron? custom factory loads?) with their 225 grain partitions going over 2700 fps.

How many elk have you shot 10 feet from the muzzle? Here's how I look at it. I decide what my minimum striking energy is. Then run a ballistics program to see how far the load can reach while carrying that amount of energy. Often the extra 100 fps just doesn't amount to any great gain in effective range.

I just ran a calculation and for a 225 grain bullet with a .4 BC you don't get a whole lot of added distance. Assuming 2000 ft-lbs is the minimum striking energy, you drop below that mark just beyond 325 yards when starting at 2700 fps. When you load up to 2800 fps you can stretch that distance to just past 375 yards. Is it worth it? The same ballistics program showed a gain of 9 yards for the maximum point blank range.

.35 Whelen is a great cartridge. The best part about it, you can hunt any critter on the continent without revving it up to the red line.

fatercat · « **Reply #2 on:** September 26, 2006, 05:06:30 PM »

black jaque, i have read plenty of charts. why do you make that statement. i just may know a little more about it than you. and the load is not warm in my rifle. no pressure signs at all.61 1/2 grains of reloader 15, 225 grain triple shock,rem. brass, large rifle primer, 24 inch barrel. now go load a few so you will know what your talking about.

TNrifleman · « **Reply #3 on:** September 27, 2006, 02:02:08 AM »

The 35 Whelen is an excellent elk cartridge. I've had one since 1988. My new one, a Remington 700 CDL is in my rack for just such a task. I handload for this round and have mostly used 250 grain bullets (Speer 250 Hot Cores). But have tried several other weights. I am currently looking at the Nosler Partitions in 225 and 250 grain. Reloder 15 is an excellent Whelen powder.

handirifle · « **Reply #4 on:** September 27, 2006, 09:48:35 AM »

Quote from: fatercat on September 26, 2006, 05:06:30 PM

black jaque, i have read plenty of charts. why do you make that statement. i just may know a little more about it than you. and the load is not warm in my rifle. no pressure signs at all.61 1/2 grains of reloader 15, 225 grain triple shock,rem. brass, large rifle primer, 24 inch barrel. now go load a few so you will know what your talking about.

You just very easily qualified how you got 100fps more than the partition load. Barnes load data, for any caliber, will tell you that 100-200fps over published max in other manuals, is not uncommon, due to reduced friction with the TSX bullet.

Once people learned to load the Barnes bulles OFF the lands, they eliminated most, if not all pressure problems of the solid copper bullets.

I have been on the fence about my '06 Savage conversion (338-06 or 35 Whelen) for quite some time and the Whelen keeps coming back to haunt me. One thing is the Whelen ammo is most likely easier to find and will SURELY be cheaper. The 338-06 A-Square ammo is about $50 per 20 right now.

Fatercat, sounds like you have a nice load there.

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #5 on:** September 28, 2006, 04:22:11 AM »

Fatercat,

Quote

black jaque, i have read plenty of charts. why do you make that statement. i just may know a little more about it than you. and the load is not warm in my rifle. no pressure signs at all.61 1/2 grains of reloader 15, 225 grain triple shock,rem. brass, large rifle primer, 24 inch barrel. now go load a few so you will know what your talking about.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend, just some friendly ribbing (which is why I added the little winky-face). The reason I posted that is because from the sequence of your statements it gave the appearance that you worked up the load, then checked the charts. Reading it a second time, I now understand that you checked the charts to compare w/ other calibers. Sorry.

Is that load from a published manual? That is a dang good load.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 28, 2006, 05:50:47 AM »

Quote

The 338-06 A-Square ammo is about $50 per 20 right now.

Which is why I hand load for it and any other caliber I own

Mac

bajabill · « **Reply #7 on:** September 28, 2006, 06:31:56 AM »

Im interested in that load book also. All the data I see for the whelen is 3100 - 3300 ft-lb energy ranges. The 338-06 data is typically higher output than the book values for the whelen, and thats with less bullet area for the pressure to work on. I know that is not the full story.

Im going to get the Loadbook for the whelen and hopefully it has more info than I have been able to gather so far. This will be my next cartridge for handloading.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** September 28, 2006, 06:47:48 AM »

You won't find any specific TSX data for the Whelen, but Barnes has guidelines in their FAQ. I'm currently working up loads for the 225gr TSX in a 26" barrel, after I get to the range, I'll post my results. You can also call or email Ty Herring at Barnes for data.

Tim

http://www.barnesbullets.com/faq_triple.php

http://www.barnesbullets.com/contact.php

Drilling Man · « **Reply #9 on:** September 28, 2006, 04:21:46 PM »

Quote

One thing is the Whelen ammo is most likely easier to find and will SURELY be cheaper.

Your nit-picking as you will be hard pressed to find either one in an out of the way place, and around home i wouldn't own either one if i didn't reload!!

DM

nomosendero · « **Reply #10 on:** September 28, 2006, 04:29:18 PM »

Quote from: Drilling Man on September 28, 2006, 04:21:46 PM

Quote
One thing is the Whelen ammo is most likely easier to find and will SURELY be cheaper.

Your nit-picking as you will be hard pressed to find either one in an out of the way place, and around home i wouldn't own either one if i didn't reload!!

DM

Amen to that!!

handirifle · « **Reply #11 on:** September 30, 2006, 06:27:08 AM »

Quote from: Drilling Man on September 28, 2006, 04:21:46 PM

Quote
One thing is the Whelen ammo is most likely easier to find and will SURELY be cheaper.

Your nit-picking as you will be hard pressed to find either one in an out of the way place, and around home i wouldn't own either one if i didn't reload!!

DM

Most likely true on BOTH counts, but this is how I go through my deision making process in selecting a new caliber. I'm also going through the same process in my other Savage conversion, a 223 to a 7mm-08 or 308 Win. Pretty much the same issues apply there as well.

Oh well, that's all part of the fun.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #12 on:** September 30, 2006, 07:27:14 AM »

Quote

I'm also going through the same process in my other Savage conversion, a 223 to a 7mm-08 or 308 Win

What's so hard about that decision?? For caribou on down, it should be the 7-08...

DM

fatercat · « **Reply #13 on:** September 30, 2006, 03:49:17 PM »

you guys have realy screwed up this thread. my wife with our crony worked this load up for our elk hunting crowd. will you the rest of you bow out. thanks richard

Graybeard · « **Reply #14 on:** September 30, 2006, 04:58:59 PM »

Dunno if that was meant tongue in cheek and jokingly or not but if not you need to understand that if you don't want folks to post to a thread then DON'T START one.

handirifle · « **Reply #15 on:** October 01, 2006, 09:31:06 AM »

Quote from: fatercat on September 25, 2006, 05:40:00 PM

i can not find any cal that can top this load . any thoughts?

If you don't want to know, don't ask!

fatercat · « **Reply #16 on:** October 01, 2006, 03:18:34 PM »

well the question was could anyone think of a cal. that could top that load, such as a 338, or 300 win. mag. i have wanted a browning auto in 300 winchester mag for the longest time. would you consider a step backward, stand still or a jump ahead. or the 338 winchester? your thoughts. thanks richard

handirifle · « **Reply #17 on:** October 01, 2006, 04:06:20 PM »

My guess is the 300WM will about the same or a lillte better on paper with 200gr loads, but the 338 WM should exceed it but not by a whole lot.

Question is, do you NEED any more power? Power, I'd say no, but range? I'd give the edge to the 338WM with better ballistics.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 01, 2006, 06:46:16 PM »

Quote from: fatercat on October 01, 2006, 03:18:34 PM

well the question was could anyone think of a cal. that could top that load, such as a 338, or 300 win. mag. i have wanted a browning auto in 300 winchester mag for the longest time. would you consider a step backward, stand still or a jump ahead. or the 338 winchester? your thoughts. thanks richard

IMHO....I think most folks who can run 1-1/2 grain over max with a 338-06A-Square or 338-06 Scovil can top that load and then some to be honest...Since the S.D of the 338 cal is .250...and the SD of the 35 cal is .251...not much difference between the 200 grain 338...and the 225 grain 35 cal...excepting the BC of .440 for the 338...and a BC of .405 for the 35 cal...which will give a better down range advantage..I'll have to try some and see what it can do...

Mac

Drilling Man · « **Reply #19 on:** October 02, 2006, 11:32:55 AM »

Quote

Since the S.D of the 338 cal is .250...and the SD of the 35 cal is .251...not much difference between the 200 grain 338...and the 225 grain 35 cal...

The thing is, i've found that "IF" you want good penertation on big animials (to break them down) with a .338 you need to use at least 250 grain bullets. I rather liked the 275 grain Speers on big bears as an 06 size case can't push them fast enough to make them over expand, even if they hit some bone....

DM

handirifle · « **Reply #20 on:** October 02, 2006, 11:49:29 AM »

Quote from: Drilling Man on October 02, 2006, 11:32:55 AM

Quote
Since the S.D of the 338 cal is .250...and the SD of the 35 cal is .251...not much difference between the 200 grain 338...and the 225 grain 35 cal...

The thing is, i've found that "IF" you want good penertation on big animials (to break them down) with a .338 you need to use at least 250 grain bullets. I rather liked the 275 grain Speers on big bears as an 06 size case can't push them fast enough to make them over expand, even if they hit some bone....

DM

Drilling man, it seems you are talking from experience, and I have only paper data to quote. Have you had deeper penetration with the 35 vs. the 338, or have you used both?

Drilling Man · « **Reply #21 on:** October 02, 2006, 01:35:59 PM »

Quote

Have you had deeper penetration with the 35 vs. the 338, or have you used both?

Many years ago i used a couple 350 Rem. mags. (same balistics as the Whelen) and a .338-06 to compare both cals. on bigger animials... For me, the .338's came out on top by enough margin that i sold the 35's that i had. (keep in mind this was before Nosler made NP's in 35 cal.) I shot numerous moose with both cartridges for my test, and i never regretted my decision to sell the 35's....

Keep in mind i "wasn't" looking for a deer cartridge, i was looking for a cartridge to build myself a custom rifle for big game includeing big bears that i was often hunting then.

The pict. is of my custom .338-06 i built and one of the moose i took with it.

DM

handirifle · « **Reply #22 on:** October 02, 2006, 02:15:11 PM »

Cool! That was what I was hoping to hear. Nice moose!

I'm going to re-barrel my Savage to a 338-06 and am looking at custom laminated stocks for it. I want it heavy enough to absorb the extra recoil, but not so heavy as to not want to carry.

Mine will be for elk and moose, a big bear would only be a dream, as it is the moose and elk hunts are few and far between.

I'm also converting a Savage 223 to a 7-08 for deer. I should be all set then. I'm REALLY looking forward to all these changes, but time and money (or the lack thereof) keep slowing me down.

Bandito · « **Reply #23 on:** October 13, 2006, 09:15:46 AM »

If you changed the Whelen to a fast twist rate barrel then you could use 275 to 310 gr bullets. Get a quality barrel already lapped. Slicker, less fouling, and shorter break-in time. Woodleigh has 310 gr in SP and FMJ. Northfork has 280 gr. There you can stay with the same case and get the long bullets and BC you sound like you want. Your thoughts?

jred · « **Reply #24 on:** October 19, 2006, 08:50:42 AM »

One week ago today I harvested a very nice European Red Stag (read: Elk) with my .35 Whelen Remington M700CDL. One shot in the lungs at about 80 yards using a 250 Gr Hornady RN behind 49 gr of Reloader 15. The stag went about 25-30 yards after being hit and then went down for good. The bullet never exited and because it was getting dark a full postmortem was not done. I could see, however, that the lungs were destroyed. The is the first time I had hunted with a Whelen and needless to say, it did the job! The Remington has an excellent stock design and great recoil pad so it was pleasant to work with in working up a load from the bench. As the movie guys would say: two thumbs up!

tanoose · « **Reply #25 on:** October 19, 2006, 01:48:33 PM »

fatercat there are probibly a few that can top that but i'll just name two and these are factory loads. 338 winchester mag with barnes 225 TSX 2830 and the 338 remington ultra mag. same bullet at 3090 FPS thats almost 300 FPS faster and they are loaded by conley ammunition . you can check them out for yourself at www.cpcartridge.com Later Tanoose

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #26 on:** October 19, 2006, 02:41:14 PM »

THat is a heck of a load but there is always bigger and better. I loaded a 225 accubond to 3150fps out of my 338 RUM. Talk about a flat shooting long range hammer.

Sourdough · « **Reply #27 on:** October 22, 2006, 08:35:21 PM »

Bear: I'm pushing the 225gr Accubond out at 3208fps with 104gr of IMR 7828. .338-378 Weatherby. Really reaches out and touches something as you know since your RUM is right there with me.

WyoStillhunter · « **Reply #28 on:** October 29, 2006, 04:14:38 PM »

I expect there are cartridges that can top the 35 Whelen load as described. But that is an academic issue.

In the real world of elk hunting one has to ask, "Is this rifle/sights/cartridge combo MY elk rifle, the one I shoot well and have complete confidence in?" The answer is obviously personal and not open to debate.

The 35 Whelen with factory ammo or handloads of comparable ballistics is an excellent elk cartridge. I have killed elk, mule deer, whitetail, antelope, and one mountain lion with a Rem. 700 Classic and Weaver K2.5 scope using both factory and handloaded ammo. It performed quite satisfactorily on all of the above. My longest shot may have been 125 yards on an antelope doe, shortest was about 50 feet on a large whitetail doe. I shot a spike elk in 2005 at about 75 yards and a 5X5 at 40 yards in 2005.

But other calibers work well on elk. In my firsthand experience 30-06, 280 Rem., and most recently, .444 Marlin ( a cow on 10/17/06) will drop elk with one shot.

Enjoy your quest...there are lots of great elk cartridges out there.

fatercat · « **Reply #29 on:** November 01, 2006, 03:42:23 PM »

well, i bought a bar 300 win. mag. put a leupold 3X9X50 then bought a box of 150 gn remington bullets and went to the range. as you can see at 100 yrds it is a tac driver. "but" it is alot heaver than my rem. 700 and does not set on my sholder as well. i swear it kicks more than my 35 whelen even with hot loads. results--the browning for sale on gunbroker.com. thank all of you for taking the time to help out with my question. now i'll try to post pics of target.