How many use bore butter?

[Selmer]

I just read my 209X50 Encore manual last night and it highly recommends using TC's Bore Butter to "season" the bore, much like a cast iron pan.  How many of you use Bore Butter to season, does seasoning help shooting and loading, and are there better products out there for seasoning and lubing my bore?  I'm new to the muzzleloader game, please help me out.
Selmer

[clodbuster]

Bore seasoning is a question that is up for grabs IMHO.  My own experience-- Built a TC .50 Renegade in 1990.  Must have been the only good one ever built if I am to believe the threads posted here and otherwheres.  Well I started shooting and cleaning with "non natural" stuff.  The gun shot well.  Then I got "wise" and started using "natural stuff".  The gun still shoots well.  I have always shot RS Pyropoof and my bore is in good shape.  Maybe the reason for unexpected performance has been my use of WD40 to remove the water I used to clean out the fouling.  Haaaa!! I love to break the rules.  Keep yer powder dry

[FallingCrows]

Hello,
I have question about WD40.
Why use it?

When I got my new Lyman I ran boiling Hot water down and around the barrel.  Then I used TC bore butter on the outside and inside of the barrel until the patches came out clean. For the stock, I used Almond wood oil

Is this technic Ok or am I missing something with the WD40 trick?
I not sure what is meant by "Season the barrel".
Do you mean to leave a coat of Bore Butter on the barrel?
I want to prevent mis-firing like I have with my CVA Bobcat.
So any help will be greatly appreciated.

- skunkie

[savageT]

Hello,
I have question about WD40.
Why use it?

When I got my new Lyman I ran boiling Hot water down and around the barrel.  Then I used TC bore butter on the outside and inside of the barrel until the patches came out clean. For the stock, I used Almond wood oil

Is this technic Ok or am I missing something with the WD40 trick?
I not sure what is meant by "Season the barrel".
Do you mean to leave a coat of Bore Butter on the barrel?
I want to prevent mis-firing like I have with my CVA Bobcat.
So any help will be greatly appreciated.

- skunkie

Skunkie,

I didn't realize that Selmer had started another string on the Encore and Contender Forum w/ the same question.  Check up there for my feelings. Hot water and detergent is by far the best cleanup method.  As far as WD-40 goes....I think it has its place in the home for many things, but NOT for firearms!  Some time ago, I ran across a study on the internet that was military based to test lubricants/corrosion preventives.  This was a study done with saltwater in air and total submersion under water, for various periods of time.  Do you know which lubricant was at the top of the pile, after all the testing was completed? I was shocked.....Vasoline Petroleum Jelly #1.  Ballistol was about #3, and WD-40 about at the bottom.  I rest my case.  If I ever find the site again, I'll be sure to bring it to everyones attention.  But in the mean time, please try Ballistol for its ability to absorb water when you are drying up after the bath in hot water.

[fredj]

SavageT- I couldn't agree more on the WD-40 not belonging in a rifle barrel or anywhere else in a rifle for that matter, the stuff is the lamest
excuse for a lubricant imagineable and even less suited as a rust preservative, it's essentially a chlorinated kerosene, it ends up building up a really nasty varnish, lots of sewing machine repairmen and gunsmiths make some very nice money putting thier clients (that use the crap) equipment back in order. And it's allegedly responsible for hydrogen embrittlement of many steel alloys which apparently leave microscopic stress fractures on the surface of these alloys, many years ago on the old FIDO NET firearms tech forum C.E. (Ed) Harris the tech editor of the American Rifleman, DOD ordinance consultant, former Ruger Engineering VP and prolific gun writer brought this out, he said when he was at Ruger you'd be fired if you brought a can of it into the plant, another member who is a nuclear plant engineer said the same thing as it was allegedly absolutely verbotten in his industry also for the same reasons, and a close friend (Mike Rock) who is an expert barrel maker and has a degree
in metulurgy backed them up.
   Common rubbing alcohol is much better for chasing out residual moisture after cleaning as it'll combine with any moisture and then evaporate readily.
   Even though it sounds counter intuitive and all kinds of gun hacks and owners manuals recommend the hot water and detergent cleaning it's actually amongst the least suitable methods for properly cleaning up BP
rifles, for one the hot water actually promotes after rusting, and the detergents are highly alkaline (some almost as much as BP residue itself)and somewhat corrosive, cold water is actually a much safer and more effective BP cleaning solvent. I originally learned this from a bench rest slug gun shooter who had quite a few national (American and Canadian) championships under his belt and had
in his 40 years + competed in virtually every type of BP shooting competition. there is absolutely no reason to have to remove your barrel and stick it in a bucket of water hot or cold. Non ammoniated glass cleaner
Cider vinegar, cold water, windshield washer solvent and a myriad of other common solvents work great you just wet patch with any of them
until they start coming out reletively clean, then dry patch, run an alcohol
saturated patch down bore either let it evaporate or dry patch then use
an effective rust preservative oil the best IMHO is LPS II, others are Sheath, Clenzoil etc. When you're ready to shoot again chase out the oil
with cheap aerosol brake cleaner like Brak-Kleen, breech areas should be cleaned often with a bore brush or bore scaper, and a pipe cleaner does a nice job of cleaning out flash channels. I n the event of a build up a bucket of cold water or one of the nipples with tubing affixed will pump out
the gunk, but this is rarely needed.
   The bore butter barrel seasoning thing is a joke, particularly for people shooting Pyrodrek or some of the other highly corrosive Faux BP's that
contain Perchlorate to supress the flash point, Perchlorate is highly hygroscopic and only partially water soluable quite a few fine barrels have been destroyed using the barrel seasoning thing in conjunction
with Pyrodex. Anyone that doubts this take your rifle to a barrel maker or excellent smith who has a bore scope, scrub all the crap out of the barrel and take a peek at what the steel looks like. Cast iron cook ware benefits
by being seasoned, rifle barrels don't.
Regards fredj

[fredj]

Ken-Windex with vinegar, Glass Plus any glass cleaner that doesn't have
any ammonia, I have no idea what you mean by an oil based cleaning solvent I'm not aware of any oil based cleaning solvents. water is what neutralizes and washes away the alkaline BP residue salts, smokeless type solvents if thats what you mean are useless for BP clean up, most
commercial BP solvents are ripoffs T/C #13 is about 90% water 10% silicone oil, the water does all the cleaning and I suppose the silicone oil helps when it's used as a patch lube, but when you buy stuff like that you're getting boned hard. If you're really a type A an into the validation thing and are too freaked to make your own BP solvent the best commercial solvent is Rusty Duck "Black Off", lots of BPCR shooters approximate this by mixing anti freeze water and alcohol.
  You need to remove the oil from the bore when you're shooting because
many petroleum based and some vegatable based oils will turn into a very nasty ashault or tar type varnish thats very hard to clean when
combined with the heat and fouling of BP, as far as alternatives to Brak-Kleen any cheap aerosol brake cleaner if you want to spend more money to do the same thing you can buy one of the considerably more expensive firearms type aerosol degreaser products and it really doesn't
have to be an aerosol because you're just saturating a patch with it, the aerosol is just conveinent. The alcohol is to remove any residual moisture before you oil the bore. I'm not really familiar with Rem Oil, I think it's primarily a lubricant and I'd bet it costs 500% more than a comparable oil because it has the name Remington on it, LPS II is incredible and it comes in a large aerosol can for $6 or $7, LPS III is better for long term storage it's sold as a rust protectant, II is also an excellent lubricant you can get these at any hardware or auto parts store. it's what they use as
a rust protectant on US Navy Submarines, I don't think they use bore butter any longer  ;-)
Fredj

[savageT]

fredj,
What is it about the ammonia in " Windex with Ammonia-D", that is verboden?  I know ammonia is used for copper cleaning, and in sufficient quantity,strength, and time can attack the steel microscopically.  But is the amount in Windex of serious concern?  Also, have you used or tried Ballistol?

[fredj]

SavageT- I think I'd agree, but just to stay on the safe side I avoid the ammonia, a number of years ago Friendship Speed Juice (Alcohol, Murphy's Oil soap, and Hydrogen peroxide) was almost universaly used by
saavy BP shooters, then it was found to be somewhat dangerous as the
peroxide component is a powerful oxidiser and if you didn't oil the bore immediately rust would start and worse the stuff could work it's way into the breech plug threads and corrode the S*&T out of things down there which could even result in a catastropic failure. Another formula became
popular sudsy ammonia was one of the constituents, I never used it because I've seen what the ammonia in Sweets 7.62 and other popular jacket fouling (copper remover) type solvents will do to a bore if left in the bore too long or even used in conjunction with other popular solvents
it'll make the bore "frosty" clean,the frost is actually the damaged steel surface and once that happens that bore will be such a bad fouler it's toast
so I pretty much avoid the ammonia, besides the most knowledgeable BP
guy in the world Bill Knight (The Mad Monk) has been using Cider Vinegar
and reports it's the best solvent yet, and he knows the intimate chemistry of all this stuff inside and out, and lots of the super experienced Grey beards that have been shooting competition for 40 years or better use plain cold water, it probably isn't as effective as Cider vinegar or glass cleaner but it works for them and some of those slug gun br shooters have considerable investments in their equipment
Regards fredj

[fredj]

Also, have you used or tried Ballistol?

SavageT- I've got some Ballistol, and I have used it as part of a home made patch lube, I was experimenting with trying to make a LeHigh
Valley Patch lube equivalent(which is incredible stuff) but my lube wasn't as good stunk and was really greasy to boot.
   I've heard nothing but good stuff regarding ballistol, but my experience with it is quite limited. Like so much of this stuff there are many differnt
approaches that will work, I know some folks have been doing the bore seasoning thing for a long time and winning matches with the same rifle,
but I'm also sure those folks are using  good quality BP and not Pyrodex
and cleaning thier barrels with a water or water based product, in addition to using to bore butter, some of this stuff is splitting hairs to one degree or another, both Bore Butter and Wonder lube are an accidental discovery
of someone using a European cosmetic, sort of like chap stick and I think
they forgot thier patch lube and it worked better than what they normally used, BTW either of these products are great for chapped lips
but like so much or the commercial stuff there's a lot of  slick marketing and a large dose of BS claims, like the Wonder lube 1000 where supposedly they have shot a thousand shots from a ML over a period of weeks without needing to clean or even wipe the bore, no doubt this was done at the at the reknowned Wonder lube research center  with all kinds
of scientists running around in lab smocks feeding the data into thier cray
8 supercomputer  :lol:, Perhaps they were shooting in an environment
of less than 20% humidity and they probably used a 55 gal. drum of the crap if they actually even did it. Which is highly doubtful, if it was nearly as good a patch lube as it is on chapped lips I'd be using nothing else
in my RB rifles  :grin: fredj

[fredj]

I like to use Rem oil or BPS with teflon because they don't leave that gunky film and they stay on to protect. I used lps when I did mechanic work. Don't find it much better than wd40 for protection. Louisiana is very humid and salty!

Ken

   LPS comes in 3 versions I,II and III the I is a high tech light lubricant
about the same intial viscosity as WD-40 but without the varnishing abilities, and it's an actual lubricant, LPS II is a heavy duty lubricant
which provides excellent rust protection but is easily removed with the brake cleaner on a patch, LPS III is quite a bit heavier and is sold as a
rust preservative/preventative and is extremely effective as such, but I
only use it for long term storage as it's waxy and not as easy to chase out of the barrel during the regular shooting season, The Navy uses this stuff pecisely because it works so well in salt type environments.
fredj

[River runner]

I'm one that uses TC Bore Butter for rust prevention, and also on my '58 Remington revolvers I use in CAS. It keeps 'em going for at least 6 stages of shooting (60 rounds) without cleaning.
I don't much care for WD40 on guns, but it's great for loosening stuck bolts and other stuff.
I've allways been told to stay away from any oild that contain petroleum products, but not allways doing as I've been told I've tried some and paid the consequences. One heck of a cleaning mess after only a few shots.
Granted I live here in the S/S desert, but right on the Colorado river so rust can be a factor. I also do most of my hunting in UP Michigan which seems to know I'm coming and greets me with rain or snow and all kinds of nasty stuff. So far I haven't had a problem using Bore Butter as a lubricant and rust preventative. I use the old clean-up recipe I call "mule snot" of Murphy's Soap Oil, Hydrogen Peroxide, and Alcohol equal parts, and then oil er down with Bore Butter. Haven't had any problems with this solution, and I probably get to shoot more BP than most as I have my own range per se. I don't use the substitute BP, and lately have been using Dragon 3F which I'm finally exhausting, and will probably buy some more when that's gone. Seems cleaner than Goex, and very consistant. The only thing I don't like to have to do is use a brake cleaner on any of my guns to remove the oil that I don't think should have been there in the first place. All I do is run a clean patch down the bore, before loading up and go about my business. Especially with the Kentucky style rifles that you can't remove the barrels without a laborious effort, that brake cleaner I would think would remove more than just the oil.
Now I'm not a chemist, but so far it's worked for me, and the Bore Butter seems to do what I want it too, and my guns are rust free and shooter better every time I take 'em out. JMHO don't claim to be no expert. Oh by the way lately I've been uing a BP lube called Thompson's Bullet Lube Co. out of Garland Tx. smells pretty good and seems to work very well. It says it's a patch lube. I got it for free at a CAS shoot, comes in a whote jar. RR

[fredj]

[quoteI've allways been told to stay away from any oild that contain petroleum products, but not allways doing as I've been told I've tried some and paid the consequences. One heck of a cleaning mess after only a few shots.
Granted I live here in the S/S desert, but right on the Colorado river so rust can be a factor. I also do most of my hunting in UP Michigan which seems to know I'm coming and greets me with rain or snow and all kinds of nasty stuff. So far I haven't had a problem using Bore Butter as a lubricant and rust preventative. I use the old clean-up recipe I call "mule snot" of Murphy's Soap Oil, Hydrogen Peroxide, and Alcohol equal parts, and then oil er down with Bore Butter. Haven't had any problems with this solution, and I probably get to shoot more BP than most as I have my own range per se. I don't use the substitute BP, and lately have been using Dragon 3F which I'm finally exhausting, and will probably buy some more when that's gone. Seems cleaner than Goex, and very consistant. The only thing I don't like to have to do is use a brake cleaner on any of my guns to remove the oil that I don't think should have been there in the first place. All I do is run a clean patch down the bore, before loading up and go about my business. Especially with the Kentucky style rifles that you can't remove the barrels without a laborious effort, that brake cleaner I would think would remove more than just the oil.
Now I'm not a chemist, but so far it's worked for me, and the Bore Butter seems to do what I want it too, and my guns are rust free and shooter better every time I take 'em out. JMHO don't claim to be no expert. Oh by the way lately I've been uing a BP lube called Thompson's Bullet Lube Co. out of Garland Tx. smells pretty good and seems to work very well. It says it's a patch lube. I got it for free at a CAS shoot, comes in a whote jar. RR[/quote

River runner- Firt of all the brake cleaner doesn't require removing the barrel, you're just spraying some on a patch and running it down bore
on your jag to remove any oil. Contrary to popular opinion a number of vegetable based oils will also create tar fouling.  I'm a firm believer in
a clean bore as I believe if any of the nasties (fouling salts) are in the steels pores they can do thier dirty work, and the never putting any oil in your bore is based on not removing it before you load and shoot, but it's undeniable that nothing protects steel barrel alloys better than petroleum based oils, particularly when you're talking longer term storage.
    I'm glad you shoot the real stuff but I don't believe your going to be able to get any more of the Chinese BP, if you can it won't be for long as it's further importation was expressly forbidden by comrade Clinton.
You might want to try the new version of WANO called Schuetzen avail' from Elephant distributors it's Alder based rifle grade and is reputed to be very clean burning, consistent from lot to lot (they are a huge European BP producer(German) ) and extremely interested in getting market share in the US. For the really hot stuff ever try the Swiss ? It's amazing in revolvers, cartridge applications, small bore ML's and flinters in general
and when you use it right it's incredibly clean and fast, you can get a mixed case and try some if you're ordering Schuetzen or Elephant, I've been using the Swiss for a couple of years and it's excellent the equivalent of the legendary Curtis & Harvey Black diamond from the days of yore, and I'm told the Schuetzen is nearly as good but a slower burn
(rifle grade) unlike the Swiss which is a true Sporting grade.
   I'll try the Thompsons I've heard good things about it and SPG does seem rather expensive. is Thompsons more reasonable ?
  As far as the Mule Snot (Friendship Speed Juice) I strongly suggest you de-breech your rifles and if the rust hasn't done too much damage clean up the threads with a wire wheel, and coat the threads with a good quality
rust inhibitor then a generous quantity of anti seize compound and if you continue to use the mule snot I'd de-breech at least annually to check things out just to be on the safe side, that Hyd. Peroxide will absolutely wreak havock on unprotected steel, which is why it suddenly dissappeared from many a loading bench at shoots a few years back
I still have some and use it on occaison on my BPC rifles and it does kick butt.
  Have you ever tried Emmerts Lube ? It's variations include crisco, bees wax, neetsfoot oil jojoba oil etc, etc, etc, and if you dig around in the archives here or on shooters.com and elsewhere you'll find a profusion of different recipies I believe for your CAS revolver shooting it would be superior to and dramatically less expensive than Bore Butter, and you can alter it for the season, reletive humidity etc.  
Regards fredj

[FallingCrows]

Hey all,

I didn't realize that cleaning a gun could be so complicated.
I think I'll stick with my technic.  It seem to get the gun clean.
I'm Definitely staying away from the household and automotive items like Windex, WD-40, etc...I don't what to ruin my new baby.

A lot of people talk about Rem Oil.
Is it worth the money to use?  I'm may pick some up to try.
What do you use on your stocks?  I used Almond Oil and sometimes TC Bore Butter.

- thanks for the help,
- skunkie

[savageT]

skunkie,

A small bottle of RemOil will last a very long time.  I  definately would put the WD-40 away on the shelf and leave it there!  If you haven't done so already, go to Precision Rifle and read!  http://www.prbullet.com/

Ballistol, ballistol, ballistol!

[Venator]

I tried everything (except bear grease!) until I finally settled on Ballistol.  I started experimenting after my Tryon bore always developed a very slight rust bloom after cleaning with soapy-water, then lubing with Bore Butter.  I finally found Ballistol and it has prevented rust completely.  I've even switched from using Break-Free/CLP to Ballistol in my centerfires and mil-surps.  It's also good for conditioning leather and wiping down gun-stocks.  Amazing stuff!

[lostid]

Read this stuff,,a blast from the past.

fredj, and river runner. This is knowledge from experiance,,no argument will be made,,their not with us.
 

[quickdtoo]

Nice find Lostid!!!

Thanks,

Tim

[roundball]

I didn't realize that cleaning a gun could be so complicated.

You're correct...It's not.

I'm one who has used nothing but steaming hot soapy water/hot water rinse methoid on a dozen and a half muzzleloaders for 15+ years.  The only lube that's gone into the bores has been Natural Lube 1000 and every bore is still like new today.

Three things have to happen...without fail...when a muzzleloader is cleaned and lubed...they must be:
1) Cleaned 100% to the bare raw metal;
2) Every square inch 100% bone dried;
3) Every square inch of surface area has to be 100% coated with lube;
If those three steps are done at the 100% level there can be no rust, period.

I think there are some considerations when using bore butter that users need to know to be successful with it:
Since it is a paste, it does not 'run' or 'migrate' around...essentially, it ends up only where it's put so you have to work at it...and I don't think the average bore butter user puts enough into the bore...after years of simply running an oiled patch up and down a .30-06 bore and forgetting about it, we're conditioned with the idea of a lubing process...we buy a pack of cleaning & seasoning patches containing NL1000, run it up and down bore, and think that's it.....IMO, the manufacturers do a poor job in calling attention to this.

By contrast, I use something like a popcicle stick, screwdriver blade, etc to reach into the muzzle and pack NL1000 into the grooves, then spread some more on a patch, and run that down bore 3-4 different times so I'm certain every square inch of the bore is plastered with it...and while that may seem extreme, my bores are still liike mirrors.  I run a dry patch down & up one time to pull out any excess before shooting.
Not saying it's the best approach, just saying what has worked for me for a long time now.

Note: bore butter must not be allowed to build up (I don't buy the seasoning thing) or accuracy will begin to suffer...the reason for the hot water is to melt the bore butter, and the inclusion of a couple dozen brush strokes every cleaning keeps anything from building up.  I shoot a 50 shot range sessions with one Flintlock or another every Saturday morning year round (except hunting season) and never wipe between shots at the range...drive home and clean/dry/lube as described above.

Problems from using Natural Lube 1000 are really not product problems, they are user process problems...it may be that other approaches are easier to use than NL1000, but it works fine used as above...100% clean, 100% dry, 100% lubed.

Just my .02 cents on the matter...

[Biff Mayhem]

Glass cleaner with ammonia works just as well as vinegar. You just don't need the ammonia when using non-copper bullets. Peroxide and ammonia mixed is dangerous - but that should not be used as a slap to ammonia by itself. Most copper solvents have more much more ammonia base than what's in that glass cleaner.

[hpdrifter]

I'm gonna show me ignorance and laziness, all in one sweep.

I read, many years ago, about a "new" way to clean your muzzleloader.  The new seasoning method.  I cleaned my TC Hawken for 15 or so years with hot water and the bore stayed shiney and clean.

I supercleaned me TC, heated up the barrel some and liberally appllied the bore seasoning butter.  I shot with the stuff.  I cleaned my barrel after the session down to a clean patch.  No hot water or anything.  Lubed her up and put away.  Did as I usually do and checked after 10-12 hours or next day if done at night.  Looked good.

Shot a few more sessions and the loading wasn't quite right.  Got curious and got the brush out and hot water and did a good scrubbing.     Found my bore was pitted down there in the depths.  Wasn't ruint completely, just running on the edge.  Still shoots ok, but I can feel the roughness during loading.

It is hot water and a good cleaning from now on.

[Slamfire]

I use Sno-Seal, it contains real bee's wax, softened with mineral oil, the main component of Ballistol.
On the exterior of my guns I use Johnson's paste wax, it waterproffs, for a couple of wet days before you need to redo it. 

[fffffg]

  the orange/ red stuff you get on your patch after using hot water for cleaning  IS rust.. youl find cold water works just as well with a little murphy soap oil about 50/50  and wont etch your barrel.   the idea is to polish it up as much as possible.. my opinion only...    remoil has tephlon in it and for me it made the spread on the first shot and the followup shot for hunting sepparate more than standard hoppes oil..   seasoning is fine on pots and pans if they dont exceed 500 degrees..at that point it turns into ash..   wood burns at about 450, black powder i would think burns at a much higher temperature..  maybe at the muzzel it could be seasoned but i doubt it in the breach...  ill  duck now and go hide till the dust settles...    dave

[KW]

I think what cleaner you use depends on the patch lube you use when you shoot. My dad and I have used Hobbes BP Lube/Solvent on our patches and even after a 70 round rifle course the last ball goes down as smooth as the first. So our rifles never get really dirty. Then we use a cleaner called Three Rivers (takes about 6 patches) in a bottle attached to the nipple with aquarium hose and run a patch up and down to flush the nipple barrel, run a dry patch, put some BreakFree down the barrel, use a patch with BreakFree to run it up and down a few times to make sure it is in there good (usually a little runs out of the nipple/flashhole), then lastly we put some BreakFree on our fingers and wipe every metal part on the rifle. In 22 years of doing this no rust, no pitting and easy shooting everytime. Takes about 10 minutes to clean a rifle, barrel and lock, no water and you don't have to disassemble the rifle. We started with Goex then moved to Pyrodex RS and it still works like a charm. Although this is with RB, I would think that with conicals it would still work. Use Bore Butter on the concials, then clean the bore with the Hobbes and start the process. Sabots , to be honest I wouldn't have a clue.

[crow_feather]

What ever you use should not rust your barrel overnight or over the winter, let you shoot all day without swabbing, and be easy to clean at ther end of the day.  There is more than one product/concoction that can do this.  Find the one you prefer through experimintation and stick with it. Various lubes, butters, cleaners might work for one, but not another.  You have to find what works best for yours.

C F

[S.S.]

WD-40 Collects dust like a magnet.
I have been shooting BP for almost 30 years now and here is what I still use
for my traditionals. For cleaning I use Hot water and ivory liquid dish washing detergent.
For Bullet/patch  lube I use CRISCO cooking grease.
for storage oiling I use 3 in 1 oil.
No problems in almost 3 decades so I think I will stick with it.
I have used bore Butter on one rifle and ruined it. That crap turned into a Black
Hard Glaze and I Damaged the rifling trying to get it out. I used it on a clean bore
that had no other type of oil or anything in it. Not sure why it did it, but I will not
risk another firearm to it.