300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?

[R.W.Dale]

Never changes does it.  First it starts out with Q&A's, then gets warmed up, then comes the quot'n' and more insert quot'n' then post includ'n', ..........

 HA HA! thanks now my keyboard is soaked with tea. If I may can I use you're above quote as a signature line on another forum?

[Redhawk1]

OK Don, it is obvious you and I as well as beemanbeme do not agree. I really don't care, because you nor I will ever be on a hunt together, and surly we will never even see each other in this life time.  Like I said, if it is legal who are you to judge? There are guys that push both envelops, the guys that like to shoot the biggest round they can and those that try to get away with the smallest, but if the law says it is OK it is OK. That is why most States put limitation's on the minimum allowable cartridge. It is up to the hunter to make  good and knowledgeable choices.

The main problem here is not that we don't agree, it is trying to impost your will on others. Some people enjoy all aspects of hunting as I do. I bow hunt, handgun hunt, rifle and muzzleloader hunt, I have self imposed limitation on all of my shooting. I enjoy all aspects of hunting, getting as close to my game with a bow and even making long shots with my rifle. If everyone thought like you, we would only be using long bows and wooden arrows and not taking shots over 20 yards, because there are those that think that is the only real way to hunt.

We could go back and forth on this and never get any where, I will never change my way of thinking and I will be D**ed if I judged someone if it is legal, keep the ethics out of it because it is another can of worms.

So I am done with this thread, I have beat my head agents the key board so much I have a headache.  

[Mac11700]

But I also believe that because of the skill levels involved in long range shooting, it's something that should not be incouraged. Those that wish to do it will find at the right time that they can. And if we could get everyone to honestly practice at 300yds there would be a lot less wounded game at 100.

Don...you got a good point...and a bad point...IMHO...Your good point is saying if we could get folks to practice at 300 yards more...it would indeed make them a better shot at 100 ...Provided it is spent actually practicing on a game target...not a bulls eye...but...(and you knew there would be one )...If your not going to encourage someone to use their skills for shooting long range...What the hell good is it to have them practice long range...Ehhh? ...

Now for the rest of this...not directed at anyone...

To me it's real simple...and a real simple anology will suffice...If I set up a shooting bench and blast away at a bunch of prarie dogs or anything else...I am shooting
.....If I go and set up camp...hike for 1/2 a day up and down hills and mountains...,ford streams...crawl thru briar patches..walk thru swamps... or exhert any amount of energy actually finding the animal...I AM HUNTING
...and I don't give a tinkers damn if someone tries to tell me differently till they have done what I have done to get the shot off at the animal...Wither it's off shooting sticks...off hand...bi-pods...or tri-pods...using a lazer range finder..sptting scope..binoculars..or any other modern convieniance that I can afford...If I have actively stalked an animal...wither I actually see said animal or not...that day or on a previous day..If I stalk silently into that same area the next day...following animal sign...and locate a animal.then take up a position and harvest that animal...I am Hunting...even if it is 500-600 yards away...

...I speak for myself...and really could care less if anyone else agrees or dis-agrees if they like the fact I can cleanly harvest a animal at 500-600 yards...or 60 feet...The only person who has a right to say if it is ethical or not provided it is legal...is the person who is pulling the trigger right then......When folks have a problem with other people doing something that really isn't any buisness of theirs...they haven't really beeen taught properly to keep their noses out of other folks concerns...These holier than thou types...are the driving forces behind the Anti hunting groups
Mac

[NFG]

Man alive.  This one really brought'um out of the woodwork.  Going for a record on replies.  Krocus, you can quote anything you like, I give you my permission.  My words are worth exactly Di** in the great scheme of things tho', and so are all the rest.  This is AMERICA where we all have the freedom to say and do just about anything including taking outselves too serious and making us total dumazzes and no one should complain...we ALL do it.  You know what opinions are...everyone has one, just like having a backside and they both smell just about the same.  Who's gonna jump on that one.

Humans have a great need to justify themselves.  It's been proven time and time again, constantly, just read this post.   Psychologists and Psychiatrists make lots of money delving into those needs, and a shot or two (large, thank you) of JD makes us experts and gentlemen, all.  Don't know why I respond.  I could be watching videos and making my mind even mushier.

I don't know what the difference is between hunting and shooting, at animals or targets, it leads to the same thing and practice makes perfect.  Target work trains your muscles, trigger finger and eyes so it's never a waste.  Scoping out animals does the same thing.  I've spent many hours just pointing and squeezing at any animal I come across, doesn't matter the size or type, visualizing just where the vitals are, depending on how the animal is positioned.  Where is the basketball?  Will the bullet penetrate?  Will the bullet hit the paunch?...totally wrong and nasty to deal with.  Neck, brain, heart, shoulder, where?   Is it relaxed or tense?  Horns or not, young or old, how far do I have to haul this stink'n' thing back to the truck?  A thousand questions before you drop the hammer, and distance is just one very small thought.  Why get crazy about it.  Da**, I just talked myself out of dealing with all that mess.  Think I will stay in camp this year, by a warm fire, sip a little JD and watch the game.  Let the youngsters have their fun, I done did it too many times already, and it is just too much pleasure seeing their pleasure and the woods are full of too many mindless, unknowing, uncaring California fruits and nuts anyway.

I don't want to say much about "liking to kill", might be some perverted guvment man listening in and getting the facts wrong.  Too many PETA people out there already, that really don't care for animals, they just want to make you believe they care so they can feel superior and have something to keep there SFB from completely deteriorating.  But...I live for hunting/shooting squirrels, I don't care how many legs or tails they have. and I'd walk a mile for  just one shot.

Lighten up, everyone, you shoot better.   I think I will leave it all to you all, it's getting way to serious.  Making me even crazier than myself and I.

Enjoy

[Sourdough]

We all have differant skills and abilities.  I can not shoot near as well as my friend, then he is a Marine and that is his job.  I think nothing of taking a 300 yard shot, that is where I have my rifles sighted in for.  A 400 yard shot is easier than a 150 yard shot, if I'm not careful I can easily under shoot my target at 150, since it is 3 1/2" high at that point.  I'm 9" low at 400 yards.  This morning I discovered that my new loads shoots 22" low at 500 Yards.  With 0 being 300 yards, seven clicks up makes it 2.25 on the scale, for 500 yards.  Now Tomorrow for 600 yards.  This is much better than my 30-06.  I'm shooting a 225gr Nosler Accubond, in front of 104gr of IMR 7828, at 3208 ft per sec.  (This load is above the maximum in most loading manuals, so don't try it in your guns).  AHHHHHHH I'm getting carried away.

What I'm trying to say, is since we all have differant abilities, what is impossiable for one, is easy for the next one.  I do not begrudge or belittle my friend that I saw shoot a Coastal Brown Bear this year at 850 yards.  There was no need for him to pass on the shot, he dropped that bear like a load of bricks.  Personally, that is beyond my capabilities, I would have passed.  Yet a couple of guys in my hunting group I will scream if they consider shooting beyond 100 yards, that is the limit of their capabilities.  (Fortunately, they know that as well as everyone else in our party, and would never try a longer shot).  I do not mean to belittle them, they just don't bother to practise, and their style of hunting give them shots from 40 to 80 yards, it's what works for them.  We are all differant, and the most important thing is to realize our own limitations, and live with them.

NASEM:  I don't shoot the .338/378 everyday, It will be reserved mainly for the longer shots.  I'm still working up the loading data for differant ranges with it and the new scope.  I still use my 30-06 for most shots when hunting, out to 500 and 600 yards.  Beyond that it looses too much energy.     

[nabob]

I don't understand something:

How is anything we do here "imposing" our will on someone else?

Nothing that occurs on this board is going to keep anyone who wants to shoot at whatever yardage they find acceptable from taking the shot. All we are doing here is presenting opinions. If someone is convinced by the arguments presented, then it is THEY who make that choice. No imposition of anything occurs.

I'd also like some clarification about how any of this is "judging" someone else. We are all presenting opinions. In one guy's opinion, long shots are not hunting. In another fellow's, it is. So what? Are people that sensitive that they cannot stand to have an anonymous person somewhere on the Internet post an opinion that calls what they do into question? It is the action that is being called into question, not the person themself. We are discussing opinions, after all, not intrinsic worth of ourselves as people.

So how about we all lighten up? If an anonymous nobody on the Internet tells me that he agrees with me or disagrees with me, it doesn't affect my day either way. I still plan to do what I do as if that person, whom I don't know from Adam's off ox, didn't exist. It is fun to discuss these issues but making them into more than they really are is kind of silly.

[Coyote Hunter]

Here’s something I posted on another forum yesterday after we got back from the range:

Went to the range today with Zach, my soon-to-be son-in-law. We started at the 100/200 yard range zeroing a new scope on the Ruger 22-250 and rezeroing the.30-30 for my 170g hunting loads (its been shooting 130g plinkers all summer).

After a while we backed off to 300 yards and proceeded to shoot clay pigeons. Zach decided it was too easy with the Ruger VT .22-250 and Ruger .257 Roberts so we decided to do something I had never done before – back off to 500 yards.

I gave the steel gongs a whack with the Ruger .300 Win Mag, then pulled out the Ruger .22-250. The scope I had just installed and zeroed was a Simmons 44Mag with a mil-dot reticule. I used the first dot below center and missed the pigeon by a couple inches. A slight adjustment so that the dot covered only half the pigeon did the trick Zach took a turn and within 2 shots had it figured out as well. 1 pigeon each at 500. Next I pulled out my sporter-weight Ruger .257 Roberts. A couple of shots and I had another pigeon. Same with Zach. 2 each.

OK, had to show him up, as he isn’t a regular shooter – hadn’t shot in 4 years in fact. We backed off to 600 yards. I took the Ruger .300 Win Mag and used the Burris Ballistic Plex reticle, trying for a steel gong. Missed high, just over the top. No surprise since I had never fired at that range before. Made a slight adjustment and whacked the steel. So did Zach.

All this talk in some threads about how hard it is to hit anything at long range, how expensive your equipment has to be, and how much trigger time it takes. And Zach does it with rifle he has never seen before, after 4 years of not shooting. Using crappy Ruger rifles to boot!

I think I’m going to like this guy!

The comment about “crappy Ruger rifles” was tongue-in-cheek.  The .22-250 was factory stock, as were the .27 Roberts and .300 Win Mag except for the following: the .257 was free floated (no bedding) and both the .257 and .300 had homespun trigger jobs.

The Simmons 44Mag mil-dot scope on the .22-250 had been mounted the night before and zeroed 2.4” high at 100 yards that morning.  In other words, just a few shots worth of trigger time with the rifle/scope combo.  The .257 had a used Leupold Vari-X III 4.5-14x with a simple Duplex reticle, the .300 had a Burris Fullfield II Ballistic Plex scope.

Considering that Zach had never shot beyond 150 yards (most of his shooting had been with a .22 rimfire) and I had never shot beyond 400 yards, I thought we did very well at both 500 and 600 yards.  At the 600-yard position the two marks left in the painted steel gong were only a couple inches apart.

Now that I know where my .300 shoots at ranges out to 600 yards, would I attempt a shot at that range on game? No, because I don’t have a way to accurately measure distance beyond 400 yards.  But if someone else had a laser capable of measuring that distance and all other conditions were suitable (wind, adequate rest, etc.), the answer is “Yes”.  Would I try to get closer if I could?  Yes. 

How would I feel about Zach taking a long poke?  I'd like to see how he does off an improvised rest, but given suitable wind conditions and what I've seen so far, 300 yards would be a cinch and elk at 400 yards would be one-shot freezer meat.

[Lou270]

In my opinion, long range shooting can be either shooting, hunting, or slob work.  It depends on the scenario.  I know guys who always seem to be enamored with adding challenge to their hunting.  These guys bowhunt because it's "too easy" to kill deer with a rifle and want the challenge of getting close to the deer.  The same guys pick stands and use equipment that afford them long shots on deer during gun season to make it more challenging.  This, to me, is shooting.  These guys are serious shooters, very ethical, and do pretty well, but they are more worried about shooting the game than hunting the game.

Slob shooting has been described in many of the scenarios that other posters have lumped into all long range shooting.  Typified by the hunters who randomly shoot at game at long ranges offhand or improper practice, then assume they miss when the deer doesn't drop.

In my mind, the long range killing of an animal is hunting when all means of getting closer have been exhausted and the hunter is capable of taking the shot.  By capable of taking the shot, I mean the hunter can get in a shooting position and is familiar enough with his equipment to do the job.  I believe what separates hunting from shooting (assuming the individual has the skill to do it) is a hunter is not looking for a long shot.  A hunter is looking to take his quarry in the best possible means.  This means getting as close as possible, from as stable of a shooting position as possible, and knowing ones limitations.

-Lou