Fly-in, ATV, snowmobiler thievery. Status? How to prevent?

[WaitsLong]

Many years ago, I read in Alaska Magazine about a trapper's
survival story. He had the major portion of his winter food
(dired salmon) stored in his cabin. He left, and when returning,
found the salmon gone. (Fly-in thieves I think, but not sure.)

Despite being an experienced trapper, he could not survive on
his trap line. So eventually he tried to leave. Exhausted, he
made a sign in the snow, which a bush pilot saw, and he was
rescued.

Concerning, fly-in thievery, I read a more general comments in
a book by an Alaskan bush pilot, that it is quite common.

So, do they steal staples like flour and cooking oil, or only more
valuable stuff?
Are there any ways to guard against this practice?
Do police say "that's a shame", or are they trying to catch them.

I know similar things happen in the lower 48, mostly snowmobiler
and various ATV thieves.

WaitsLong

[Daveinthebush]

It seems to be getting more and more common according to the state police reports.  It used to be that all cabins were unlocked and if you needed to use it you would leave it bette than you found it.  Today it seems like everyone needs to steal.  More people have snow machines and ATV's than ever before. I think a lot of it is the youth.  They want everything for nothing and have little respect ofr others, no manners or respect.  Maybe I am having a bad day teaching but it looks like we are on a down hill slump with manners and respect for others.

[corbanzo]

Thats the problem with the middle of nowhere... no one to catch them, no one left to blame.  I have some property and my old man told me when he handed it down - don't leave anything of value, or they'll take it.  I'm building a new cabin and trying to come up with a burgalar proof system, which includes removeable windows and such.  It has been a problem for a long time, especially if there is a snowmachine trail or the like nearby.  I was talking about my breakin proof system when the "they get tired and bring out the chainsaw" idea came up.  I hope somebody has something better to do with their life than that...

[Dand]

It is a problem. Out here in Bristol Bay some folks lock up and others leave things unlocked - better to let them walk in than break in.  Some guys I know have a good enough reputation that people know better than to mess with their stuff.  I was in a plane crash once near King Salmon - nobody really hurt - and the pilot wouldn't leave his plane for even an hour.  He was afraid his radios and stuff would get stolen.  He sat out there in the bugs with very little extra stuff until  we arranged for a helicopter and some tools to go back out to the site.  He  had the plane back on the runway by the end of the day. In several pieces.  Another woman I know lost her husband in a plane crash.  It took a long time (several months?) to find the crash site. The story I heard was that the engine had been stolen! I still can't feature the gall of that theif - leave the body and steal parts and not report finding the crash!

So those of us who have places, and especially pilots try to keep an eye on each other's stuff.  I never snogo all the way to my place.  I walk the last 1/4 mile on a windy indirect trail through thick brush.  Most of the thugs are too lazy to get off their machines - but they'll follow any snogo trail.  Had one guy last winter show up on my trail just as I was loading back on my snogo.  I had cut some wood nearby so he may not have known I have a place nearby.  In the unfrozen season its a tough 1.5 mile walk over bog and that helps keep the the creeps out. But I don't leave much good stuff there.  Need to check, haven't been there in a couple months and with so much rain some of the bog might require a boat. 

[Sourdough]

My partner and I have a two trappers cabins down in the Alaska Range.  One is off the trail and hard to find, no problem there.  We just don't put the trail in till after the season.  If there is no trail in the snow to follow the snowmachiners won't find it.  Both are ten by twenty foot log cabins and the second one was built back in the 30s.  It is just off the trail, but can be seen from the trail.  I know the original builder, he is now in his 90s, but has turned the permit over to my partner many years ago.  My partner and I trap out of there each winter.  We never had any trouble there, the locals always used it, since it is about half way from several mines and homesteads to the highway.  We would have never known if they did not tell us since they always leave it just as they find it.. 

When Fish and Game started having the Cow Hunts is when the problem started.  A large influx of people from Anchorage came about then.   Last year I went back over there a week after the reguler season ended.  A group had moved in and did not like hearing that I was one of the permit holders.  They got real beligerant and refused to move out.  I went out and called my wife on my cell phone and asked her to call the troopers.  At that point they decided to leave.  They had pretty well trashed the place in the four or five days they had been there.  Every day another group arrived, somedays three or four, and got mad about me being there.  They all said they had planned to stay there and had not brought the proper gear to camp out.  I refered them to a bed and breakfast down the trail near the Gold King runway, or to the minner that would put them up in his bunkhouse for a fee.  They did not like that at all.  I began to think several groups were going to forceably remove me, and move in anyway.  Many tried to tell me I had no right keeping them out of the cabin since it was on state land and they had the right to use it anytime.  I informed them about the permits that my partner and I pay for each year that gives us the right to have the cabin there, and asked if any of them had bothered to call the owners of the cabins pointing to the sign we have hanging on the wall with my partners name and number on it.  None had.  Fish and game had given out maps to the area that showed the trail, mines, runways, and cabins on it.  They felt that the cabins were old and uninhabited, or abandoned, and were free for their use.  They never thought that someone might have a permit for the place or that some homesteader, minner, or trapper might live there. 

Anyway, I left after three weeks.  Things had slowed down somewhat.  Then a couple asked if they could use the cabin.  My partner gave them permission, but told them I would be joining them on a certain date.  No problem there was plenty of room for three people.  When I returned I found a differant place than I had left.  The couple told me the stove had been knocked over and all the pipes crushed, all the windows had been knocked out, broken beer and whisky bottles everywhere.  The mattresses off the beds had been throwen out into the snow.  Trash everywhere, and building material we had carried out had been burned where we had unloaded it back in the woods.  All the firewood we had cut ahd stacked under the porch roof had been thrown out on the ground and set fire.  Only about half if it had burned due to the snow melting and puting it out.  Luckily, they had not burned the cabin down.  I fully expect that to happen this year since my partner was staying there during Moose season, and had problems with people trying to move in on him.  With all this warm weather the trail is so muddy that it's too hard to get back in there right now.  Maybe that is a plus for us.  I plan on going back in there as soon as the trail freezes. 

[Winter Hawk]

When I got to Fairbanks for college in 1966, Alaska Sportsman Magazine (now Alaska Mag) had an article about folks not believing that people actually lived in cabins, and how some guy came home one afternoon to find a couple of tourists packing everything out of his cabin into their car.  Their response was that no one lived like that anymore!  And that was 40 years ago.  Several years later I was in Biology class with Dick Cook and he told me about being on the riverbank in Eagle when some canoeists showed up.  He recognized a number of fierarms these boys had in their boats as belonging to locals up the 40 Mile River.  He asked them about these guns, and these yahoos said they were from abandoned cabins.  "How do you know they were abandoned?"  "Well, the keys to the padlocks were hanging beside the doors."  They did not like hearing that folks locked up with a padlock since bears couldn't open them, and that the key was left for whomever needed to use the cabin in emergency.

In the late '60s the Highway Department stopped stocking the emergency shelters they had on the Richardson Highway at the summit pass, because "hunters" were eating up the emergency rations and using up the fuel.  These were every half mile along the road so if someone were stranded in the snow they could at least survive until the plows came through.

And Mike Holland told me that he came home to his cabin on the Yukon one day to find someone loading his recliner into a river boat, again figuring the cabin was abandoned.

It might be increasing with Alaska's population gains, but it isn't a new problem!

-Winter Hawk-

[WaitsLong]

Band Together; form an Action Group.

You have informal groups to help each other,
but a more wide-spread group with connections
in media, law enforcement, and legislation
would be far more effective.

Non-partisan educational and political groups
can be quite successful. What do you have to
loose? Whether you like them or not, look at
the success of Mothers Against Drunk Drivers.

You might be surprised to find non-permit and
non-owners would join or support you.
Also some exiisting groups might help you on
specific legislation or enforcement practices.

I have some specific ideas that I think would
work, but I will withhold these, because if
you do not form a group, they would be
useless anyway. Also, when (if)  you Alaskans
commit and start serious discussions among
yourselves, you would come up with very
good action plans for yourselves.

I really do admire the tuff "can do" individualism of
Alaskans. But there is also a time for group action,
with good stategy and tactics. To be effective,
that action needs to sustained for the long run.

[GrassLakeRon]

Hi all,

     We have the same kinds of problems with cabins in the northern parts of michigan.  Even when the police get involved recovery is really never an option for your missing material.  I am an armchair alaskan at this moment, stuck here in michigan for a tour or two.  It sounds like the ills of the planet are coming to paradise.  Are family had a cabin some time ago.  The only way to keep the windows intacked, doors on and contents safe, was to put on 3/4" plywood shutters and steel doors.  I now this goes against the very fabric of alaskan way of life, but at least the cabin was safe.  An idea,but maybe costly, is to hang signs saying this is an owed and used cabin up then building a small 2 person emergency building nearby would keep in the spirit of helping those in need and still perserving what is yours.  Just my 2 cents.

Ron

[WaitsLong]

Ron,
You reminded me that certain areas of the Lower 48 have cabin break-ins
and that solutions and partial solutions can (&need) be shared, among all.

Your entire post is good and practical but, let me use part of your post,
that addresses  1)signage 2)alternate emergency cabin.

Ron wrote:
An idea,but maybe costly, is to hang signs saying this is an owed and used cabin up then building a small 2 person emergency building nearby would keep in the spirit of helping those in need and still perserving what is yours.
/Unquote

I think both of these ideas are good and reinforce each other.

However, one could rightly say "That wont solve the problem".

Folks,

Do not reject ideas because they wont solve the entire problem,
for all time, and without exception.

Likewise please Do share ideas even if they are only  partial
solutions or have small effect.
(Someone may be able to modify an idea and make it extremely effective.)

So share some ideas.

Incident descriptions, by themselves, are also useful; they stimulate ideas
and illsutrate different facets of the problem.

[GrassLakeRon]

I wish indeed that people respect each other as well as other folks property and such.  They should also respect nature and all that live in it.  But people don't respect most of it and sometimes not even themselves.  Education is an answer.  I teach high school in earth science.  we teach this respect.  But there are a few that no matter how much we talk,teach, show, they still fall back to what they learn at home.    If this is break in issue is growing, then a few signs won't do much.  Educating a generation to respect what others have, this is a worth while goal.  But there will always by one bad apple.

Ron

[WaitsLong]

Ron,
I would bet that all school employees are keeping their antenna
out for any threats or shooting precursors. Break-ins may or may
not be a precursor, but any weapons theft should be a concern.

More Specifically to Break-ins, Theft, Vandalism.

I consider the education component essential; it can show how
people are hurt, how destruction “aint purdy”, how stolen items
are not so useful as imagined and can be quite vexing to possess.

I think no education session is complete without a Warning
components, like "Vandalism is a felony in this state",
or a story of a guy getting caught, or a story of a lifer who
started this way.

I also see education in the larger sense of using the Media to
dissuade and warn potential criminals, but also to affirm to those
who control the legal system,
that we care and that the criminals were warned.
The Media can also be a way to contact like-minded people
who will volunteer or join an action group.

[GrassLakeRon]

Stealing is a way of life where I work.  The average is over 2 dozen ipods stolen a day.  Mix in teachers materials and such.  I can not forget the cell phone, cars, and computers.  Last year we had 4 felons (armed robbery to kidnapping an old woman and a student 12 gauge another on his way to school).  We have an armed police officer in the building.  This is all real.  But  on brighter note,  Our local astronomy group with a handful of funds and 1 trip to the capital help pass a law for a local area park to become a dark sky perserve.  This is an easy model to duplicate for what you may need to do.  It took about 6 months and we got the help of an astronomer,David Levy, to write the bills preface.  I would think that for a statewide education day about how to respect cabins and property to preserve Alaskan way of life would be an easy sell.  Is your governor a hunter?  Could a local hero/star of public face pitch the campain?  I do hope you succeed in this.  One day I would like to come back and spend better days there. : )

Ron

[corbanzo]

I can respect for the need of shelter, but when it comes to the use of property that someone else has built for their use, I just have to draw the line.  If you are going to go out into the woods on any type of hunting expedition, you should be ready for the conditions.  What if you are lost and dont get to the cabin?  You should have the gear to survive, especially if you are going to be out there for a number of days.  I will be soon making a sign, this is not public property, if you are found here without permission, I will use deadly force to defend my property.  It's not just a pain in the butt anymore, its a pestilence that is destroying the way of life for many of the backwoods dwellers not only in Alaska, but many other parts of the world.

I have uses forest service cabins that I did not pay the night for, but if the rightful users ever came up, I would be out of there and leave them to their peace.  I don't use private cabins because it is disrepectful to the owners, unless I know that I have the right to use that cabin.  The right is the specific consent from the owner for persons other than his friends and family to use that property, and at a time when said persons dont need it.

You guys are right when saying that respect is losing ground now a days.  The hoodlums think that they can take whatever is out there in front of them, nobody is around to claim it, so they claim it for themselves. 

[WaitsLong]

Specific tactics, or any good idea should be
recorded and evaluated, but the general plan
is also important.

What are the components for good Strategy,
an over-all plan, over time?

Consider, one component of a good Strategy:

Start where there is fertile ground and a good
probability of success.

In selecting successive areas (geographic, legal, or other),
also select fertile ground and probablility of success.

Dah, of course. It needs to be said and understood,
because in their zeal, many do just the opposite.

Walmart started in small town areas that were
under-served by big retailers. If Sears, had only
predicted Walmart's ultimate success, Sears could
have crushed Walmart at a formative stage.
But Walmart went un-noticed or posed no threat,
as little country stores, here and there.

So, for the break-in problem, try not to attract big
city adversaries, while in your formative stage.
My guess: your strongest adversaries would be a few
parents who are directly impacted and who want
themselves and their kids to be un-accountable.

Other adversaries will be the doctrinaire type, the few
key liberals that you will find, even in rural areas,
for example:
some PTA moms, some newspaper reporters.

My examples are stereotypes, of course, but it is
important to identify as many adversaries as you
can, in advance. You need to minimize their impact,
and at present, I have no general advice for this.

I have never organized such a group, or movement;
if my ideas make sense to you, use them.

Don't be Lone Rangers,
            WaitsLong

[Daveinthebush]

I have uses forest service cabins that I did not pay the night for, but if the rightful users ever came up, I would be out of there and leave them to their peace. 

Actually this is illegal and you can get fined if caught by F&G, Forest Service and others........FYI

I don't use private cabins because it is disrepectful to the owners, unless I know that I have the right to use that cabin.

Actually in the past this was a common practice in Alaska and some still do it when in unknown areas and shelter can not be found.  Some simple rules do apply when doing so.

1.  Always leave firewood so that someone in need can start a fire and replace any that you use.
2.  Always leave the cabin cleaner and in better shape than you found it.
3.  Always leave items that you do not need, that others might be able to in an emergency. (Toilet paper, sardines, cans of soup and such.)
4.  Leave a note thanking the owner
5.  If you do have any body functions that need to be taken care of out-of-doors, do so away from the cabin so the paper is not laying all over the place in the spring.   

When others are treated with respect, they usually have no problem with you needing to use their cabin.

[Golsovia]

Thankfully, it still works like that in some places, at least if they're remote enough. (It seems most real thugs aren't all that energetic when it comes to wrecking things so don't put their effort into getting way out, at least sometimes.....)