Author Topic: bullet seating depth  (Read 2876 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline The Chad

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 38
bullet seating depth
« on: October 15, 2006, 11:19:35 AM »
Anyone had better accuracy with standard oveall length handloads or bullets seated closer to the lands... I am working up loads with my 280 and just can't seem to get below 1 moa. I have not yet tied to load at standard length, but I might try it....

Chad

Offline Fred M

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2362
    • Fred The Reloader and Wildcatter
Re: bullet seating depth
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2006, 12:19:38 PM »
Chad.
Load bullets as close to the lands or even into the lands for best accuacy. Just remember when you load into the lands there is an 7200psi increase in pressure. so a smal reduction of powder is required.

Flat base bullets work best like the 145gr Speer hot core or the 139gr Hornady Interlock. Stay away from the SST. The 140gr TSX is the best of the bunch for big game.

The best powder for the the 280 or 280 AI is Reloder 22. H1000 is not too  bad either. Thes two powder will give you the lowest pressure with the highst velocity with a near full case of powder.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43301
  • Gender: Male
Re: bullet seating depth
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2006, 12:54:57 PM »
Rl22 looks great on paper, and provides the best velocity from all data sources, but I've read it's very temp sensitive from way too many hunters that won't use it because of that, it's better to use a powder that's consistent with a little less velocity than one that shoots different when the temp goes up or down. I'm using H4831SC in mine and it works very well with 140gr Ballistic Silvertips. Will use it with 140gr TSX when I get it back as an Ackley Imp-Imp. ;D

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline cwlongshot

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (158)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9907
  • Gender: Male
  • Shooting, Hunting, the Outdoors & ATVs
Re: bullet seating depth
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2006, 01:22:35 PM »
I have had EXCELLENT results with 4831 and a 140 & 150 Nosler BT bullet. I like the bullet just off the lands. Say 5-7 thousands. Seating into the lands is a big no no for me, unless I am fire forming a case. Just too unpredictable as far as pressure spikes. I LIKE my guns and over the years have grown accustomed to my facial features.  ::)

 FRED,
 Why do you not recommend the SST in 7mm?  I haven't used any myself, but I have a friend who swears by them. He uses the 243, 30/06 and 300 WM calibers but not the 7mm. Just curious..

CW
"Pay heed to the man who carries a single shot rifle, he likely knows how to use it."

NRA LIFE Member 
Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline jack19512

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 639
Re: bullet seating depth
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2006, 03:41:42 PM »
Anyone had better accuracy with standard oveall length handloads or bullets seated closer to the lands... I am working up loads with my 280 and just can't seem to get below 1 moa. I have not yet tied to load at standard length, but I might try it....

Chad




I have one rifle(not a NEF)that doesn't like the bullet seated closer to the lands as far as accuracy is concerned.  I experimented with my loads and the closer I seated the bullet to the lands the more my groups opened up.

Offline Fred M

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2362
    • Fred The Reloader and Wildcatter
Re: bullet seating depth
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2006, 04:05:09 PM »
Tim.
Reloder 22  does not only look good on paper, it also produces the finest ballistics in a variaty of cartridges. Norma loads most of their ammo with MRP which is Reloder 22. Their ammo has a suberb reputation of accuray under world wide conditions.

There is no powder made that is not temperature sensitive, some more than others.

I have and still do use Reloader 22 for many years in the following calibers, 7x61, 7mmWby, 7mmRem Mag, 257 Wby, 300 win mag, and others but multy cans for the 280 and 280AI  and lately in the 25-06. I have never ever come accross any temperature problems. Of course I don't shoot in the dessert at 140F or leave my ammo on the dashboard exposed to  the sun heat.

So my recommendations are not based on hear say but on personal experience. I am not saying other powders do not work in the 280Rem. But non come close to Reloder 22 in the 280.  

 cwlongshot.
Quote: Seating into the lands is a big no no for me,

 Your statement is neither based on facts nor knowledge. Thousands of target shooters including my self use this accuracy practice. In fact it produces less pressure variation than any other method. All these shooters also like their facial features and they are not being changed by loading bullets into the lands.
Also most of them are experienced handloaders.

Quote"Just too unpredictable as far as pressure spikes. That statement I do not understand. What is the basis of the unpredictibility and spikes? It surely has nothing to do with loading bullets into the lands, because the extra pressure created is totally predictable. Of course handloads are not predictable when put together by people that do not know what they are doing.

The SST bullet is very distructive and ruins much of the game meat by breaking up.
If meat loss is no problem by all means use it, it kills well. Yes I tried them in my 7mmSSAI. Besides the ones I had were unbalanced and not very accurate.


Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline mitchell

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2067
  • Gender: Male
Re: bullet seating depth
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2006, 04:36:31 PM »
i've had good luck with rl-22 and with loading into the lands but just remember that all rifles are differant so of mine like the bullets in the lands and some of them don't . when i'm making a load the last thing i play with is OAL . its a fine tuning thing for me, but if i had to make a bet i would say that bullet in the lands would
shoot better then out of them.

as for the SST's i love them .and this isn't somthing i've read in a book i've killed dran near 20 deer with the 30 cal 150gr and 165gr bullets i find them to shoot well and kill deer like the voice of God , ya they are hard on meat but hey i've only had like 5 deer take a step after getting hit .
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline cwlongshot

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (158)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9907
  • Gender: Male
  • Shooting, Hunting, the Outdoors & ATVs
Re: bullet seating depth
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2006, 05:15:24 PM »
 

 cwlongshot.
Quote: Seating into the lands is a big no no for me,

 Your statement is neither based on facts nor knowledge. Thousands of target shooters including my self use this accuracy practice. In fact it produces less pressure variation than any other method. All these shooters also like their facial features and they are not being changed by loading bullets into the lands.
Also most of them are experienced hand loaders.

Quote"Just too unpredictable as far as pressure spikes. That statement I do not understand. What is the basis of the unpredictability and spikes? It surely has nothing to do with loading bullets into the lands, because the extra pressure created is totally predictable. Of course hand loads are not predictable when put together by people that do not know what they are doing.

The SST bullet is very destructive and ruins much of the game meat by breaking up.
If meat loss is no problem by all means use it, it kills well. Yes I tried them in my 7mmSSAI. Besides the ones I had were unbalanced and not very accurate.

First off, my statements ARE ABSOLUTELY based in FACTS and KNOLEDGE!! How the heck do you know what I know???? You have one of them crystal balls that lets you know what I know and see what i see?

I do not know how many shooters use bullets seated into the rifling.

Now you talk of less pressure variations???  I would COMPLETELY AGREE with that statement. But that's NOT what I said. I said and you even made mention of it, in your first post. If your load is from a published Manuel and you seat the bullet into the rifling the pressures WILL BE HIGHER, so REDUCE the loading!!!  Why the double talk? We are saying the same thing, yet you attack me on it, why. Have I offended you in some way? There isn't a reloading manual out there, that I know of, that recommends loading their loads with the bullets seated to touch the rifling as a general practice! All loads listed are for bullets OFF THE RIFLING, seated to that individule cartridge's max OAL. Printed in most relaoding manuels established by sammi specs.

 So you are able to predict what a bullet will do with an arbitrary load with the bullet seated into the rifling...unless you have pressure testing equiptment...I THINK NOT. I have NO doubt you know what YOUR loads will do in your rifle, but that's not where this all started now is it? I am not arguing the accuracy potential of this practice. My most accurate loads are the ones where the bullet is close to the rifling. MY practice is NOT to let the bullet touch the rifling. You do what you want, this seating a bullet into the rifling is a NO NO FOR ME!!! I am one of those strange peoiple that actually stops at stop signs and holds doors for ladys and removes his hat indoors.. guess I am just strage that way....;) ;D

 Why the hostility in your posts? Why the statements about non experienced reloaders? They seem directed at me, are you saying I do not have experience? If so that crystal ball of yours seems to be working overtime this evening, maybe you should look a bit closer. You will see I have been at this for some time and I am not some wet behind the ears kid.
 
I for one have little doubt as to your experience hand loading. I am sure you have been at it for years and are good at it. I read your posts and like some of the way you see/respond to posts. Your web site is handy and well writen, I visit it often. My problem with this whole topic is MANY people on here haven't a clue about these non standard loading practices like this. They are VERY NEW at it and lack your hands on experience.
I would hate to hear about some poor bloke who blew his gun up, or hurt himself or someone else because he took your postings as gospel.

 I am not upset, just a bit defensive in my responses as I felt yours where a bit belittling towards me...If I read into this wrongly, my apologies.

Have a good night,

 CW
"Pay heed to the man who carries a single shot rifle, he likely knows how to use it."

NRA LIFE Member 
Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Re: bullet seating depth
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2006, 07:21:10 PM »
FWIW...I happen to know a-lot of BR shooters who all load as Fred has explained..and they all have their collective body parts...Heck...Look at the Hodgdons pressure data for H1000...even with a 8,000psi increase..you still will be under the limits of the cartridge...and the  rifle by a long shot...This isn't a new practice...and it has been taught to several hundreds of would be BR shooters every year...In other words it is a common practice...but...Fred just needs to follow up on what he started by telling folks here why...He knows...just as most others who have reloaded for any lenght of time..to not substitute...and if using different components and bullets..to reduce the charge....and to pick a powder than is well below the highest listed pressure for the cartridge...which is usually a compressed charge as well...Just like H1000 is for the 280...

So...just because someone is new to reloading...doesn't mean they can't benifit from having a different approach and learning a new reloading technique...provided the get the complete story...and I am quite sure if anyone interested enough on how to do this...Fred would be more than willing to help in this regard...and if not mistaken..has this info on his web site...Oh...for those just reading here...If your wondering...most 280's in our Handi's have a wee long throat to begin with...and being so...the bullet is seated much futher out in the case reducing pressure even more...having it touch the lands with a bullet(not jammed into the lands...but seated to just touch...we aren't fireforming JDJ cartridges here...just loading the 280 Remington ;)...)..and using the appropriate powder like H 1000 with a correct charge...it won't hurt anything...but may help..If in doubt...please call any of the bullet or powder manufactures...and ask...

Have a Great 1

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Fred M

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2362
    • Fred The Reloader and Wildcatter
Re: bullet seating depth
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2006, 07:16:10 AM »
cwlongshot.
I am glad that somebody agrees with what I said. Like I mentioned before your statements were not based on knowledge and were erroneous.

Mitchell.
Two items, the SST like I said are hard on meat, that is why I don't recommend them.

When developing a load you should start with the bullet 15 thou into the lands with a 10% reduction in powder, and go from there. If you seat into the lands after you developed a load you could run into high pressure, depending on the powder you use.

By retracting the bullet from the lands for fine tuning you will decrease pressure and may have to make up with a slight increase of powder. The small cartridges like the 223 or the 204 or my 6x47 and 6ppc are very touchy in that respect.
Again I am not talking of danger but accuracy. Thes little speed demons react to a 0.2gr of powder charge.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline McLernon

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1217
Re: bullet seating depth
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2006, 08:50:04 AM »
My Practice is to develop a load 1/32 off the lands for best accuracy. This more often than not results in less than max load. Then I move incrementally toward the lands watching for any sign of pressure. I usually settle for .005 into the lands, just enough to line up the bullet and that's all. Now if you have an older rifle like I have(22-250) I end up seating the bullet 0.025 or more into the lands but the bullets are barely .001 tight so they get pushed into the case by the lands.(This is sometimes referred to as 'chasing the rifling'). Again I am attempting to get bullet alignment only. There is more than one way to develop max accuracy ammo.

McLernon

Offline McLernon

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1217
Re: bullet seating depth
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2006, 10:45:00 AM »
Just checked my .204 Ruger with 32 gr. Vmax's. With a good amount of bullet engagement I can reach the rifling. I'll be using this fact to tune for best accuracy. That is, if my dies and cleaning rod ever arrives. I'm really getting impatient!!!!!

McLernon