Author Topic: Hunting accuracy for whitetails (Read 1452 times)

BRL · « **on:** October 13, 2006, 08:44:42 AM »

I just came back from the range the other day for the second time in two weeks. I am trying to practice for a hunt I have booked this season. I haven't been shooting in 2 years but I must say that I was disappointed with my results. Now, I am shooting a Remington 7400 auto so I don't expect sub MOA groups. But, my groups were 3 -5 inches at 100 yards (using 2 different kinds of standard factory ammo). I was sitting on a bench and just resting my rifle on a firm, flat pillow. I don't have bags or a rest. My second trip to the range was no better than my first. I do intend to go again next week and the week after to see if I can better the group.

Is this enough accuracy for hunting deer out to 200 yards? I know what most people say about the vital zone and as long as your in it (the 8" circle), you should be fine. Well, I lost a bit of confidence after this range session and am already second guessing things before I've even gone on the hunt. I wish I knew what my groups were like from a solid rest/bag. I'm not sure if it's me or the rifle...okay, it me.

What are some other groups people are shooting from their hunting rifle? From a solid rest and without?

Thanks!!

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** October 13, 2006, 09:00:29 AM »

Quote

Is this enough accuracy for hunting deer out to 200 yards?

No quite honestly it isn't. You really need to beg, borrow or steal a better rest. You really need to know what the gun and load can do without you being so much a part of the picture. But the bad part is that rest is likely better than you'll have in the field so that means you likely will not be able to do as well when actually hunting.

It sounds like you've not done much shooting in quite a long time and perhaps have never been a very regular shooter. That's the case with a LOT of folks who go afield for big game each year. Too often at public ranges I've run into folks who have a hard time keeping their shots on an 8.5"x11" or even 10"x13" target sheet from the bench. That really is NOT acceptable accuracy to go afield IF you expect shots at or over 100 yards.

Your rifle might be a good deal of the problem. I'd first have it thoroughtly cleaned by yourself or a gunsmith. It needs ALL the copper removed, likely it is coppered up pretty badly. I'd take the scope, base and rings off and remount them making certain all is solidly mounted in the process. What kinda scope does it have? Do you have another you can try on it to see if that's the problem?

First do all the above and put same scope back on and see if it's better. If not can you get someone you know to be a good shot to try it?

How well have you shot this gun and/or other guns in the past? BTW some Remington semiautos will shoot an inch at 100 with ammo they like. You certainly should be able to get 2" groups with it at 100 yards if all is right.

You really must know what the gun/load is capable of so you can know what you have to work with. Field accuracy is not going to be as good as bench accuracy even using the pillow you are for a rest. It will only get worse.

As to how good is good enough, well the kill zone of a deer is about 8" or at most 10" and the range doesn't matter. So if you can't keeep the shots inside say an 8" circle at any given range you are not ready to hunt at that range. And that's from field positions NOT from the bench. From the bench I want 100 yard groups to be 2" or less if I'm gonna take the gun out to hunt with it assuming any shots over 100 yards are possible. Better feels good but honestly isn't required.

BRL · « **Reply #2 on:** October 13, 2006, 09:28:58 AM »

Points well taken. I really do want to see what the rifle (and I) can do...now. That was my first gun I bought 20 years ago when I first had an interest in hunting. After college until about 5 years ago I went to the range about once a month and fired a box through that rifle and then headed to the pistol range. I seem to remember that the rifle did shoot about 2" groups at 100 off a sandbag.

The scope is a redfield lo-pro widefield 2x7. I do have a cheap Bushnell that came with my NEF .243.

As mentioned, my range trips have been very limited over the past 2 maybe 3 years. I am using this rifle only because I shot it the best...or at least I used to. And for the fact that, of the deer I have shot, all have been with that rifle and one shot kills. Now, I have only shot 3 deer to date. But, I am trying to start hunting every season from this season forward. I am at a time in my life where I can put a lot more effort and consistency into shooting (practicing) and hunting.

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** October 13, 2006, 09:37:56 AM »

The scope is an OK scope, not the best around but far from being the worst. Unless it's taken some hard knocks chances are it's still OK.

The first thing I'd do is clean that barrel to remove all the crud from years of shooting. You can do it IF you have the time and inclination but getting rid of the copper is gonna take a lot of effort. You'll need a good copper solvent, I use and recommend Barnes CR-10. Sweets is another good brand. I'd also use some JB Bore Paste. It might take a hour or two of cleaning if it's been fired as much as I suspect since the last thorough cleaning. That alone might fix it and it needs done regardless.

Next up would be making sure all is secure with the base to gun, then rings to base. This very well have loosened over the years.

BRL · « **Reply #4 on:** October 13, 2006, 10:57:01 AM »

Thank you. I have some Butch's and Kroil. I'l start there this weekend, move to the bases/rings and see what that does.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #5 on:** October 13, 2006, 12:06:23 PM »

I'm thinking you need to get to the range and shoot.....shoot....and shoot some more.......

It might be your rifle....don't know........Is there someone else who might be able to shoot your rifle and see if the results are different?

Don Fischer · « **Reply #6 on:** October 13, 2006, 06:03:28 PM »

I think that after a good cleaning I would recommend shooting from a field position, sitting. This late what ever the rifle will do I would guess will be better than you can shoot right now. What you really need to do is practice YOUR shooting skills. I would suspect that on a bad day your rifle clean will do 3" and that will work for 200yd shooting. Not really good by anymeans but I believe that it's more important to get yourself going right now, a clean rifle will out shoot you is my guess. I shoot a good deal and believe my rifles will outshoot me!

Land_Owner · « **Reply #7 on:** October 13, 2006, 08:12:17 PM »

I am thinking that your barrel may need to be free floated, or wedge something in there in between, so that none of it is touching the forearm of the stock when firmly seated in its bedding. That may tighten your groups. Google "barrel free floating" for multiple easy ways to achieve if time is short and you want to try that.

I applaud your conviction to go to the range and check out your rifle and your own shooting ability. Nowhere else will you obtain that confidence in yourself and your equipment to the benefit of the animals we hunt. Forget the pillow. Use the vertical support of the range house, or shoot holding your rifle against a tree, or buy two 10 pounds bags of rice at the grocers and slip them into the cut off legs of some jeans and use them as a steady rest. Off-hand and poor quality rests are the bane of confidence. Why would you use anything but a steady rest when God gave us so many natural ones? Then relax and have fun squeezing the trigger and measuring your breathing so the sight picture is steady at the shot. Then and only then will you know that you have performed to the best you can do as the shooter. If accuracy is still poor then look to something in the equipment.

Strengthening your confidence in yourself is something that all shooters should do, but unfortunately many do not. I KNOW where that bullet is going to go when I pull the trigger from a steady rest. Remember, only the first shot from a cold barrel is all that really counts.

Good luck. Keep us posted on your results.

Graybeard · « **Reply #8 on:** October 14, 2006, 01:03:01 AM »

Not so easy to "free float" the barrel on this rifle. The stock is two piece and that fore end has to be attached somewhere.

On another note: Who deleted Nabob's response and caused it to end up in the trash can and why?

rickt300 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 14, 2006, 03:51:27 AM »

Last year I bought a Remington 742 in 30-06. I didn't shoot it before I cleaned it and apparently who ever sold it to the pawn shop never cleaned it with a brush. It isn't so easy to carefully clean these semi auto rifles as you have to do it from the muzzle without damaging the crown of the rifle but with care, patience and a one piece cleaning rod it can be done. I figure a 243 would be even harder to get the job done on because of the smaller bore. On my 30-06 I never saw a barrel so fouled. I worked on it several different times but in the end the bore looked new and the rifle shot into an inch and a quarter. "But" only after trying 5 different factory loads. It wouldn't shoot any 150 grain bullet into less than 4 inches but Remington 180 grain PSPCL's consistently shot into less than 2 inches. To maintain this accuracy the rifle had to be cleaned thoroughly every 20 rounds as it accumulated fouling worse than any barrel I had ever owned.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #10 on:** October 14, 2006, 03:57:46 AM »

Landowner touched on some very important points, following the rules of basic marksmanship are vital. Practicing bad habits is of little help. Things like grip, breath control, trigger control, sight picture and total concentration are so important. One thing I find myself guilty of is taking to long to get the shot off at the paper target. This affects your eyes and breath control. If this happens, look away, take another breath and try again in a minute or two. Good luck.

Cheese

nabob · « **Reply #11 on:** October 14, 2006, 06:16:22 AM »

I deleted my own response, GB. It was a "me too" that I didn't feel added much to the conversation. You'd already covered the ground pretty well.

BRL · « **Reply #12 on:** October 14, 2006, 12:12:25 PM »

Well, just an update so far.

I ordered a solid front rest and a rear bag along with 5 brands of ammo from Midway yesterday. I mentioned that I am now in a time in my life where I can more afford this sport and would like to get involved and practice more. Well, I thought that I should just get a good rest now and stop wondering what a rifle can do. Although...as some have mentioned...I DO realize that I need practice and that I need to practice practical shooting positions in the field.

Last night I cleaned the gun with Butch's (my first time using that). I went through 40 patches before one came out clean. I had used Hoppes 9 all those years and thought that the gun was clean after several passes when the patch would come out clean. This time, I thought it was never going to end. But, it finally did.

Thanks for everyone's input and help as well as not flaming me for booking a hunt after not shooting for a couple years and waiting until a month before going to start practicing again. You always hear that someone does that. Well, you never think it's going to be you. I should have been smarter than that. I already have some confidence back after cleaning the gun but I still know that there is a lot ahead of me over the next few weeks. I'll post again.

Thanks everyone.

nasem · « **Reply #13 on:** October 18, 2006, 11:09:18 AM »

my opinion is.... The recoil of that 7400 is bothering you. What caliber are you shooting ? is that a 30-06 ?
I have a 7400, its my first rifle ever and I use it ALOT. In the past 4 years I have put close to 2500+ rounds in her and I can easily get 1-2" groups (depends on what ammo I use)..... I don't reload the '06 so Im always using the cheapo Silver bear and what not. I do clean up the barrel every 100-200 rounds though so, Its taken care of real well.

IF the recoil is really bothering you, then I suggest switch to a lighter recoil caliber and see how ur accuracy improves. Try your NEF 243, thats a great deer round.

smokey262 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 18, 2006, 06:05:07 PM »

Another thing you might try is the reduced recoil rounds from Remington and Federal. Both are adequate to 200 yards. If you have not shot much in a few years it might be easier to build your confidence and accuracy if you did not abuse yourself with recoil.

BRL · « **Reply #15 on:** October 19, 2006, 08:46:56 AM »

Thanks for the input. I really don't think that the recoil is that severe in the 7400, and yes it is .30-06. In my opinion, my unscoped Browning BLR in 7mm-08 recoils slightly more. I love shooting that little Browning. I'm not using it (on my hunt) because I don't have a scope for it, didn't want to move one from another gun and haven't shot it a lot. I have used the manged recoil ammo before but can't remember my groups. Although, it wouldn't cycle the action. That wasn't that big of a deal for me at the range.

Yesterday I went back to the range with a front rest and a rear bag and tried again. My smallest group was 2.5" with the same ammo that produced the smaller group origionally, Remington 150gr CoreLokt. I did notice something this time though as I was much more in tune to what I was doing. The scope on my rifle is a little too far foreward for me. Even on the rest, I would put my cheek on the stock, my hand on the grip and look into the scope. I would always have to adjust forward to get the full sight picture. While on the rest, that position was pretty uncomfortable. Twice, I hadn't cycled the action (without realizing) and didn't have a round in the chamber. The trigger snapped without the gun moving, so I don't think I am flinching.

I figure I can make it to the range several more times before I go hunting. I would like to try more ammo outside of the 150g weight category.

Thank you.

litman252 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 21, 2006, 03:51:36 AM »

Progress my friend you are making progress. Be proud of the fact that you are getting where you need to be.
Smell venison yet??

Tony

elmer · « **Reply #17 on:** October 24, 2006, 06:49:05 AM »

I have a Remington 742 that like the Core-Lokt in 165gr so you may want to try those.

BRL · « **Reply #18 on:** October 26, 2006, 08:28:34 AM »

Well, I wasn't able to better my 2.5" group before leaving for my hunt. I didn't see the whitetail I wanted but did get 2 hogs. Both one shot kills. Although, I am still not comfortable with those groups and will try to better them with different bullet weights and possibly a new scope. Not that I think something is wrong with this one, but I just didn't like the sensitivity it has to get a full sight picture. One small move of my head in any direction means loss of sight picture. I am told it is because of the scope being a low profile, wide field scope. More field of view at a given range than regular scopes but sensitive with the sight picture.

Thanks for everyone's help.

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #19 on:** October 26, 2006, 10:12:16 AM »

Generally, I think you'll find how well you shoot is more important than how well your rifle shoots. Experimentation with your rifle and different loads is essential, but shooting practice under field conditions is more so.

.308 Win. · « **Reply #20 on:** October 26, 2006, 07:15:07 PM »

Sorry you didn't find the whitetail you were looking for. If I may, I'd like to make a suggestion regarding your next scope purchase. I've used Leupold, Burris, Simmons Aetec and some of the lesser Bushnell offerings in the past. While all of these scopes were good-to-decent scopes, I have a favorite and it's the Bushnell Elite 3200. It's a lot of scope for the money and has a European fast focus eyepiece that I find really helps. I am a middle aged fellow and this scope works the best for these eyes.

In addition, I'd like to ask you a question. Why did you not just take your .243 with heavy-for- caliber bullets on your whitetail hunt? I know it's on the light side for deer but if you shoot it well and it's accurate, a 100 grain .243 in the boiler room will put them down. Just a thought because I know you were having a lot of trouble with your 7400. A friend of mine has one in .270 and he's never been happy with the accuracy of his rifle, either.

BRL · « **Reply #21 on:** October 27, 2006, 06:17:20 AM »

Thanks.

The Bushnell Elite 3200 does sound like a nice scope, and at a reasonable price. There is a Bass Pro Shops opening near me in November. I think I'll take a look at the scopes in person so I can look through them. There are only 2 gun shops here and neither stock a good selection of scopes. I think Bass Pro should have a 3200 in the showroom.

I didnt take the .243 because I had only shot a few rounds through it and none of them hit paper at 50 yards. I chose, what I thought was, the lesser of 2 evils...trying to better the 7400 as opposed to trying to bore sight the .243 and then start to work on scope adjustment and practice with that in the allotted time I had. I do like that NEF .243 and hope to get it grouping well in the near future and getting some good range time in with it. Then there is the Browning BLR. If I buy a new scope, I might be tempted to mount it on that rather than swaping out the Redfield on the 7400. We'll see.

.308 Win. · « **Reply #22 on:** October 27, 2006, 09:47:17 AM »

I've always heard good things about Browning's BLR. I'm with you on possibly mounting the 3200 on it instead of the Remington. But, then again, I love lever guns anyway. My first centerfire was an old Marlin Glenfield in .30/30 and I'm currently without one. That will change pretty shortly, though.

Like you, I have small windows of opportunity to shoot but I have the opportunity to do so at home rather than having to go to a range and that helps tremendously because the closest range to where I live is about an hour away.

Think you'll like that little NEF. Every one of them I've ever had was a shooter.

HuntingGuy · « **Reply #23 on:** October 27, 2006, 05:56:50 PM »

Don't have time to read replies but i'll reply to your post. It probably isn't what you want to hear, but 5" with your heart rate normal will become 6-7" probably when you have that big buck in your sights. I like to keep my rifles 2" or under at 100.. If it can't do it, I have other guns that will. Get yourself a good A-Bolt and the problem will be eliminated

Also, get yourself a Hoppe's rest.. And figure out if it was your positioning or something wrong with the gun. Best of luck-- Buenas Suerte.