Author Topic: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled  (Read 1150 times)

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Offline flattail

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Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« on: November 17, 2006, 06:05:12 PM »
I’m new to reloading, haven’t reloaded a live round yet.  I am attempting to load Remington 405 grain jacketed soft point into once fired Remington brass, so that I can duplicate the Remington Express loads (R4570G).  I have loaded several dummy rounds, but to duplicate the factory round, I am seating the bullet for an OAL of real close to 2.550”.  The problem is that in order to do that I am not crimping in the crimping groove, but rather on the rounded part of the bullet just below the (I think) ogive.  This keeps the bullet from traveling forward out of the case OK, but it takes relatively light finger pressure to pop the bullet down into the case.

When I look at the factory round, it is crimped in the same place, but it appears that Remington is putting another crimp in the case at the base of the bullet (to keep the bullet from moving down into the case?).  Can I put that type of crimp into a reload?  If you are familiar with this factory round, I think you will know what I mean.  Maybe it is possible, since I am using a Lee Classic Loader, that I need to full length resize to solve this problem. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2006, 06:16:07 PM »
The Lee factory crimp die will make that crimp, but it requires a press.

Tim

http://leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1163826905.5421=/html/catalog/dies-crimp.html
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Offline bluebayou

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2006, 06:20:29 PM »
My first thought is:  did you trim the brass?  What is the trim length on 405?  It looks pretty straight...but how long is the fired brass?  I know the criimp at the base of the bullet but don't know how to replicate it.  Sorry for the limited help.

Offline flattail

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2006, 06:25:05 PM »
quickdtoo, will the hand press do the job?

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2006, 07:12:56 PM »
Yes, the hand press takes regular dies. As bluebayou mentioned, you'll probably need to trim the brass to get to the factory specs. The Lee trimmer is about as inexpensive as you can get and works great, specially chucked in a cordless drill.

Tim

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000690685

http://leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1163830084.5864=/html/catalog/casecon.html

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000690152

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000690110
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2006, 02:55:59 AM »
I have a question. You mention "finger pressure" to push the bullet into the case. 

Are these cases FL-resized?  If so, you have perdy strong fingers to seat a bullet deeper in a FL-resized case. I'm teasing of coarse. ::) the brass is thin, but has good bullet retention. I do recomend crimping if used in a tubular mag.

I looked and seem to be out of the REM bullet but I thought they had two canalures? I know the Speer 400gr does:



 This one is seated to the forward most cannalure and crimped.



 While it is possible for some guns chambers to take the bullet loaded to the REAR canalure, most repeates actions will not accomodate a bullet loaded to this OAL legnth. Some SS actions will work with this longer OAL legnth.



Many here like the LEE factory crimp die and have good luck with it. But it will NOT crimp the case BELOW the bullet (In the middle of the case) like you see in some factory loaded ammo. It will crimp a case into a bullet (at the mouth) where there is NO CANALURE.
Personally I have had no such use for it.

I hope this answers you question.

CW

"Pay heed to the man who carries a single shot rifle, he likely knows how to use it."

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Offline flattail

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2006, 05:34:45 AM »
cwlongshot, the bullet has two crimping grooves, but I can't use either one of them.  I made a test cartridge (no powder or primer) and seated the bullet in very small increments, continuously trying to chamber it in my Handi 45-70.  I am past the top crimping groove before the action will close. I haven't tested it yet, but I'm starting to suspect that my Handi has a very short throat.  As far as a press, my problem is room.  I am thinking about getting a couple of hand pressess (maybe 3) and leaving different dies in them.  Much easier to store out of the way, I am thinking. 

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2006, 06:08:12 AM »
Most, if not all H&R .45-70s have short throats, I have 4 of em including one that's been rechambered to .45-120, that were short throated, I rented a throating reamer and deepened the throats by about .240" to accomodate larger bullets. You don't need to crimp the bullets for the Handi so Iwouldn't worry about it.

FWIW, you can crimp out of the cannelure if you do want to crimp. The Lee Loader will also crimp if you choose to not go with the hand press and FCD, set the loaded cartridge in the base, place the sizing die upside down over the bullet, and tap.

Tim

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/RE1422.pdf

http://www.marlinowners.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=16187&highlight=crimp+ogive
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline flattail

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2006, 06:09:55 AM »
I have read almost every post and reply in this forum and in the NEF single shot forum and have found a wealth of information in them.  The problem is that when I want to refer back to them, I can't find them.  In the copywrite section of Graybeard Outdoors, I think it says in effect that I can't print these out for future reference (please conrrect me if I'm wrong on this) 

Not to long ago, I read an excellent post by somebody called "the myth of OAL" or something like that, explaining how to use a dummy round to determine the max OAL for a particulare round in a particular rifle. You put permanent marker on the bullet, started seating it in an unsized fired round, pushed it into the chamber all the way, then measured OAL and backed off, I think, .02"? If somebody remembers where this post is, I would really like to find it again.

Also, quickdtoo, in a recent post, you mentioned making the throat longer by renting a reamer.  I can find that post again, but am wondering if that operation could be performed by a novice like me.  And, if I bought a chamber camparitor, how deep would the end product need to be?

A lot of you guys talk about buying too much stuff, but at least you are using it.  I started by buying a Classic Lee loader.  Then I bought a set of Lee powder dippers, a Lee reloading book, a Lyman reloading manual.  Then I wanted a few other items, and it looked like the cheapest way to get them was to buy the Lee Anniversary kit ($69 at Cabelas), so I bought that, too, to get the chamfer tool, scale, case resizer (then bought the 45-70 piece separately).  Now I have a powder measure and bench mount press that I may never have room to use, and I still have not produced my first loaded round.

But I DO appreciate the help and advice!  Someday, I hope to actually shoot a reload that I produced!

Offline jh45gun

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2006, 06:12:29 AM »
Lee hand presses work fine I have two of them and use them for every thing including sizeing lead bullets. Yea I load for the 45/70 too and use a lee factory crimp die on my cast bullets it works great. They are worth getting in the 45/70 you have to buy them separate it is worth it to do so.
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline flattail

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2006, 06:12:30 AM »
quickdtoo, my last post was being written while your last post was made, so yours was not read before I sent it.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2006, 06:23:22 AM »
quickdtoo, my last post was being written while your last post was made, so yours was not read before I sent it.

Not a problem, that happens! ;)

Maybe this will be the answer to your space problem...it would be great to mount the Challenger press to....

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=155024

As far as the throating, it's not hard or complicated, just use plenty of cutting oil and go slowly. I highly recommend Randy Reeves COL tool, for $25, it's the cat's meow, extremely accurate and very simple to use. See the links below.


Tim

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,100524.msg1098265499.html#msg1098265499

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=52152487&page=&fpart=all&vc=1

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=52212062&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1&nt=2
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2006, 01:40:07 PM »
Flat tail,
 A case that is too long can also cause difficulty in chambering. Just as a improperly sized case can.

 Have you chambered any factory REM ammo with the same 405gr bullet? Does that chamber correctly? If so the problem may be just your dummie round.

While its not impossible, it is rather unlikely your gun will not chamber a correctly trimmed 45-70 case, w/405gr bullet crimped in the forward most cannalure.

 Check this out and post up. Now I am even more curious!!

 CW
"Pay heed to the man who carries a single shot rifle, he likely knows how to use it."

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Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2006, 01:45:53 PM »
Another issue that you may be experiencing is if the bullet has too much runout, it will touch on one side in the leade and give you the impression it's too long. This is usually evident in the .45-70 case as a buldge on one side where the bullet base is in the case. Ideally the buldge will be even all the way around.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline flattail

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2006, 02:49:15 PM »
I will just list what I know or suspect and how I have come to my conclusions:
-The factory rounds (405 grain jacketed soft point), chamber and fire with no difficulty in the Handi 45-70
-The factory rounds don't crimp in the cannelure, they crimp well above it, just at the beginning of the rounded part at the top of the bullet (the beginning of the ogive, I think). They have another crimp at the base of the bullet approx .560" below the mouth of the rim.
-OAL of the factory cartridge is 2.535" by my measurement on one round using my Frankford Arsenal caliper (just bought and I set it to zero).  OAL of the unfired factory case is 2.090".
-OAL of the once fired shell case is also 2.090" after resizing.
-Since my last post I loaded two dummy rounds (resized, chamfered, etc) and seated the bullets so that my overall cartridge length was 2.750".  Then I opened the action on the Handi and pushed the cartridge in and closed the action.  Then I carefully opened the action, using my thumb to prevent it from ejecting.  I then measured by OAL on the dummy round at 2.630".  I then did the same thing with the other dummy round.  It measured OAL 2.633".
-When I load a dummy round and crimp into the top cannelure, my OAL on the dummy cartridge is 2.652" and it won't chamber.

The reason I can chamber and fire the factory rounds with no problem is that they are seated deeper.  I can't seat that deep and keep the bullet from basically falling into the case because the top crimp only keeps it from moving forward out the case, but does not keep it from moving further into the case.

This is probably as clear as mud... I appreciate the help.

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2006, 02:13:30 AM »
Its clear to me...at least I understand what you have done and how you have done it.

 I will go check out mine and do the same things you have done and see what numbers I get.

But it sounds to me like you have a short leade in your rifleing. Your bullets are being pushed back/in the case by this...

 You COULD trim the case back so you can crimp in the top cannalure and call it good. But I think you have a problem with your chamber.

Unfortuneately, I cannot find andy factory 405's or even loaded rounds in my ammo cabinet. I know I HAD some....got to look more/better. I'll try to get some and check this out as well.

I'll post up later with what I find.

 CW
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2006, 05:38:10 AM »
The 405gr Rem round is 2.538" long, the brass is 2.10" long and is roll crimped over the swell just above the top cannelure and has the dimple crimp at the base of the bullet.

Tim



ps...what's wrong with this pic? ;D

"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline flattail

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2006, 06:44:25 AM »
Thanks, quickdtoo!

I need to figure out how to post pictures.

I am thinking that I might start my reloading career by reloading for my guide gun. I know I will have to be a little more careful seating the primer and making sure I have a good crimp when I load for a tubular mag.  I need the three die set and factory crimp die and either a way to bench mount my press or to buy a hand press.  I know my wife is going to say these are Christmas gift items, so I might be on hold for a little while.  I will be getting back to you guys with more questions and, I hope, with results.  I am not giving up on the Handi rifle, just putting it on hold.

quickdtoo, I notice that my measurements are uniformly a little less than yours.  Is that because of inaccuracies in my caliper? or am I measuring to close to the end of the caliper arms (pressing too hard and slightly bending the arms when I measure)?

Thanks a lot for your interest, and quickdtoo, the box you show says "Core Lokt", which I think these are not.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2006, 07:09:10 AM »
Measuring the COL on the tip of any bullet can cause inconsistent readings, more accurate measuring is done on the ogive of bullets with a comparator, but for this purpose, it makes little difference. Measuring the case length with a bullet seated in it is not easy to do and could very well cause errors in the reading, but it's close and consistent with trim length.

The box I grabbed to pose in the pic was a box of .270 ammo that just happened to be on the bench with the .45-70 ammo! Didn't notice it until I was editing the pic, the .45-70 ammo is marked just "Express Rifle"!

Go down in the Blackpowder Mortar and Canon forum, there's a sticky on how to post pics. ;)

Tim

"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline flattail

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2006, 12:57:11 PM »
Anybody who has read this topic is certainly welcome to answer, but if cwlongshot or quickdtoo read this, you have been active in helping me and I would like your input if possible.

I also have some Hornady 300 gr HP 45-70 bullets (their number 4500).  I did the same experiment with them as I did with the Remingtons.  I made a dummy round with the bullet seated just a little into the case and inserted it into the chamber of my 45-70 Handi rifle, and closed the action.  I opened it carefully, not allowing the cartridge to be forcefully ejected (didn’t want a ballistic effect on the bullet), and measured the cartridge OAL at 2.650”. This is theoretically where this bullet seating touches the rifling.  I then seated it to the cannelure, which gave me an OAL of 2.545”.  This means I am .105” away from the rifling.  Am I good to go with this bullet?

There is a load in the “One Book/One Caliber” booklet for exactly this Hornady bullet (for the 1895 lever gun) calling for a starting load of 35.8 gr of IMR4198, going to a maximum of 48.7 gr. of IMR4198, with a COL of 2.550”.  The loads they give for the trapdoor with this bullet don’t list IMR4198 (the only powder I have).  If I start with the minimum load of 35.8 gr and progress to their stated medium loads of 41.0 gr and 43.6 gr of IMR4198, do you think I’m OK.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Newbie loading Rem 405 gr. - puzzled
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2006, 01:28:23 PM »
The Handi will take loads in excess of what the levergun pressures levels are, but that bullet won't so there's no need to go any higher anyway. If you want to go faster, the 300gr Speer Uni-cor is a much better built bullet. Notice there are no 300gr Hornady loads for the Ruger data. ;)  If you want to stay in trapdoor levels, the Lyman 48th show 31gr start and 36gr max IMR4198 for the 300gr Remington bullet, which is comparable to the 300gr Hornady. Steve shows the same start load on his web site, except he uses Win LR primers, the Lyman data uses Rem 9˝ primers and Rem brass.

Tim

http://www.stevespages.com/458_1_300.html
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain