8mm surplus misfires

[Cheesehead]

I bought a 900 pack of Turkish 8mm Mauser from Midway, about 90 bucks shipped, circa 1955. My brother and I shot several rounds through 3 different Mauser rifles today and experienced a disappointing rate of misfires. The ammo came 5 rounds to a stripper clip and 15 rounds to the cardboard box. The rate of misfire varied from 10 to 50% per box. Some hang fires also were experienced. A 1-2 second delay. I believe I will contact Midway and see what they are willing to do. We tried another brand of 8mm surplus purchased from Dunhams, fired every time, but the neck of the cartridge was often split and made extraction difficult. I guess I am still learning the lesson, "YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR".

CHEESE

[Stan in SC]

Turkish usually comes in 70 round bandoliers.You said this came in boxes.I'll bet it isn't Turk.It's probably the infamous Yugoslavian that has a lot of misfires.

Stan

[Cheesehead]

Stan

You might be right about it being Yogo. The text on the box appears to be "Russian" like. Its still crap.

Cheese

[Blammer]

check your firing pin spring. Lots of folks have had this issue and then changed or put in a NEW firing pin spring and then went to pretty much NO misfires.

[jack19512]

check your firing pin spring. Lots of folks have had this issue and then changed or put in a NEW firing pin spring and then went to pretty much NO misfires.

He stated they tried it in 3 different Mauser's.  Probably small chance all 3 Mauser's have a problem.   

[Mikey]

Cheese:  soounds like you have learned a painful lesson.  Not all mil-surp ammo is worht buying, or even shooting.  Not all mil-surp ammo in the same caliber (8mm for example) is made to the same specs as the original stuff.  A good example from modern day calibers is found with the 7.62x51mm cartridge - some is made to US/NATO specs, but some are different, lower powered loadings in 7.62x51mm configuration.

I am not a fan of Turkish 8mm surplus.  Misfires are common and if you are not schooled in the proper procedures for managing misfires or hangfires in bolt action rifles you could wind up with horrendous injuries.  50 - 60 y/o mil-surp ammo is still 50-60 yrs old - it may have worked well when it was new but it ain't new now.  In addition I believe the turks used lighterweight bullets than what the original German mil-spec called for and the stuff just might not even be worth keeping.  I found this with a bunch of mil-spec 7.62x25mm pistol ammo and some 9mm Largo ammo as well - the stuff was way old, almost as old as I am (ouch) and hangfires were the call of the day.  Got rid of all of it, went with a more current maufacture and all is well.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Stan in SC]

My experience with Turk ammunition has been exactly contrary to Mikey's.I much prefer it to any of the other 8MM milsurp ammo available and have had very very few misfires.In fact I don't really remember the last misfire I did have with it.Most of it I shoot is dated in the 1930's so it is old but still good.The Turk ammo uses a 146 Gr. bullet whereas the German and Yugo and others use a 196 Gr. bullet.
The Turk is loaded hot usually averaging around 2900FPS coming out of the barrel.Once Turk ammo was the most available cheapest stuff but not any more.I am fortunate to have a pretty good personal stash of it.

Stan

[Cheesehead]

Since I have tossed the sales receipt for this junk ammo and Midway would probably insist on this document I have decided to disassemble all 800 remaining rounds and salvage the bullets and powder. Then take the primed brass, soak it in a bucket of water for 1 week and put in in the trash. I know this sounds tedious but I will just do 100 rounds a night and remember the lesson learned. The bullets seem consistent in every way, 196 grain boat tail, is non magnetic and would make good plinkers. The powder weighs in at 41 grains and is flake type.

Cheese

[jack19512]

I know a lot of people have bought the 50's dated surplus ammo and have had no problems but I try to stay with the 70's and later.

I still don't think you are gonna get hurt by pulling the powder and bullets and using them.  I have a bunch of the Czech silvertip 7.62X54r that shot lousy in all of my M/N's and that is what I am doing with it.

If you ever get a chance to buy some Yugo 70's 8mm surplus don't pass it up if it is reasonably priced.  I have a bunch of it and wish I could find some more.  It shoots real good out of all my 8mm's, almost as accurate as my handloads.

[Blammer]

jack, yes I did not remember about the 3 other rifles.

good idea on the powder and bullets. weigh the average amount of powder you get out of each case and you can drop a grain less and reuse it in modern cases with the bullet. I know several people who do this.

I would not bother soaking the cases in water to kill the primer, when they dry out  the will still probably be dangerous or go bang.

I'd run em all through my rifle and snap the primer if it goes bang fine if not well fine. That way most will be dead.

remember the primer is the component that causes the rust to form quickly on the gun. so wash with hot soapy water afterwards.

Good luck in you endeavors!

[Mikey]

OK, unless I am nutz I have very recently read an article about pressure increases in 'stored' ammunition, which could easily account for 'hot' loads in some of the older mil-surp stuff.  The key word was 'stored', as in the way military ammo is stored.  I've just checked my latest Shooting Times but may ahve overlooked the article.  Has anyone else read that article or am I imagining things.................................?  Mikey.

[Brithunter]

Hmmm it seems some history needs to be learned. The 8mm Mauser switched to the famous Spitzer bullet which weiged 154 Grns in 1905. This caused such concern amongst the other Powers of the day that it directly led to the dropping of the 30-03 and the adoption of the 3-06 Cartridge in the US and the development of the Mkv11 174 Grn .303 load in Britain. France also developed it's 8mm loads to use the new spitzer bullets.

Later Germany developed a 196 grin bullet as the lighter 154 grain show lack of ranging ability and penetration in the new air warfare. It also seesm that it's easier to regulate machine guns using a heavier bullet.

   Turkey did not adopt the new heavier bullet and stayed wiht the 154 grain one. It seems each country who used the Mauser and the 8mm had their own ideas depending on how close their relationship with Germany was.

     Now the storage conditions and tempretures does affect the powder over time as well as hte primers. Of course some powders and primers are inherently mor estable than others. I ahve shot soem WW1 dated .303 ammo with not problems whilst some WW2 dated ammo and some much newer 1960's dated ammo again in .303 out of South Africa is horrible with lots of hang fires.

    The velocity of the original 154 grain JS loading from Germany was around 2900 fps and in this loading is actually superior to the 06 which only manages 2700 fps wiht a 150 grain bullet. The intersting point here is that the Pressure for the 8x57 was set at only 46,000 which is lower than the 30-06. One theory is that the 0.323" bore is more efficient than the 0.308 bore having abetter expansion ratio. The Germans also seemed to have a better powder at the time but then again Smokeless powder was invented in Europe and France actually was the first military power to adopt a smokeless load for it's rifles. My how things change!

[S.S.]

These kind of threads always make me kind of curious.
I have fired lots of the above mentioned Ammo from the countrys mentioned.
I seldom have Misfires ? Weak firing pin springs  are what seemed to be the culprit,
not the ammo.. Lord only knows how many rounds some of these firearms have shot !
Springs get tired ! Replace the spring and see if it cuts down on the misfires.
I did buy a couple hundred rounds of OLD 303 Brit. That misfired terribly !
The date on the headstamp was 1909. I got a couple of hundred nice reloadable
Mk VII bullets for a really cheap price though after I pulled them !
Always a plus somewhere with surplus ammo I guess? 

[Brithunter]

Hmm very strange indeed S.Sumner , you see the MkV11 ammunition was not adopted until 1910 so unless you found some trials ammo which somehow I doubt. The is something funny there. ammo dated 1909 would be MkV1 215 Grn RN.

[S.S.]

I actually thought the same thing about the dates of adoption?
This Ammo appeared to have been made in Egypt. (the numbers were the same as on my
Hakim rifle sights)  I think I still have a couple of live rounds of it,
If I do I will try to get a picture of it and send it to you. I took one of the pulled bullets
and put it on a belt sander to get a cross section of it and it was not a fibre filler in the tip,
it appeared to be aluminium. The date was definately 1909, Bullets are pointed and not round nose.
Powder was "spaghetti" cordite of course and there is a triangle on the exposed lead base of
each of the bullets. (Triangle may mean something to You, but not me!) I cannot read Arabic So I do not know what the headstamp reads. 

[ajj]

The "0" in the date is probably the symbol for "5." The triangle is the symbol for Iraq. I've got a good bit of .303 British cordite so stamped with the same mark on the bullet base.

[S.S.]

I scrounged one up from a different country
I am going to try to post a pic. or two

https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/thumbs/Cerberus/3031.jpg


https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/thumbs/Cerberus/3032.jpg

[S.S.]

Well......
There shrunk..
I am still working on it..

[S.S.]

Success....!

[ajj]

Yep, this is Iraqi, made in '59. It didn't come in cardboard boxes of fifty with fake wood-grain printed on the paper, did it?

[S.S.]

Man I bought that stuff so long ago I can't remember wood grain.
I just remember that it hang fired (Unpleasant thing to happen)
and misfired a lot. I do believe it was a 50 or 60 round box though.
and it was loose rounds and not on stripper clips. A stupid question here?
Does 0 mean 5 and 0 in arabic? My Hakim has A .0 (dot 0) where the (1000)
increment should be? Being that 0 is 5 I wonder if my sight was mismarked?
I was using the sight increments to figure out the Numbers.
I know most readers of this are saying "It says 1909 on it, what's the problem?"
But remember it is arabic numbers. Do all Arabic countries use the same symbols for numbers?
Figuring out this kind of stuff is quite interesting to me!

[ajj]

Yes, sir, the last chart I looked at said the "0" is a five and that the "9" is the only character which is common to both systems. I can never remember what is what. I just googled "Arabic Numerals" and got a chart. I've forgotten where I read that the triangle is the the symbol for Iraq, some discussion of military ammo, but sure enough, it's on the base of the bullet. The fellow who sold me the ammo said it was Iraqi. He sold me a nice No.4 Enfield at the same time...made me buy the ammo to get the rifle. I read up a little and saw the warnings about cordite being hard on barrel throats. I bought a beat-up, $90 No.4 which, of course, shot even better than the pretty rifle. So now, I worry about shooting up the ammo. I've fired about 75 rounds of it, I guess. Shoots pretty good and no misfires yet.
I always thought those wood-grain boxes were hilarious. Not another mark on the box, just cheesy, fake wood grain. I've always wondered what they thought they were accomplishing with that waste of ink.
Them Hakims are a hoot, aren't they?

[S.S.]

They can waste ammo really quick,
I remember when those things first hit the market.
They were advertised as "dropped in sand only once"
condition. The funny thing is, when I disassembled mine to clean it.
IT WAS FULL OF SAND !!!
They are about the loudest rifes I have ever fired too.
Crazy story about mine!
Back about ten years ago, there was a certain pilot who would
come across my pasture and terrify my horses. He was so low that the trees would
move from the wind as he passed. I finally figured out that he was looking at my wife
out by our pool.. Now BARE in mind that we live way out in the woods
and swim-wear is sometimes optional.. .. I discussed the problem with the local Sheriff
Who was a friend of mine. And jokingly I said I was going to shoot that plane down
if he didn't stop being a peeping tom. His reply was less than professional and unexpected.
And he apparently knew the pilot and disliked him pretty badly. Needless to say
One look at that big ugly Hakim pointed skyward (Unloaded of course) and I have never
seen that pervert again... I now call it my anti-aircraft gun !!!
I am a rocket enthusiast also and already had one prepared to scare the (Expletive)
out of him if he returned... He never did.. It would not have done any damage
but the black powder in the nose looked like a flak burst when I fired it !
Yes, I am one of those rednecks that Jeff Foxworthy makes his living poking fun at !

[1911crazy]

Could hard primers cause the miss fires in the older military ammo?  Or could it be a weak firing pin spring in these old military gals?

 I know for sure the yugo 50's stuff is prone to miss fires I hear alot of complaints.  I had a few in my hakim with the yugo 50's stuff too.  My '37 turk 8mm ammo still goes bang everytime, i have lots of that stuff.  I have had no miss fires with equidorian,  yugo 70's, turk 37,  39 or 40,  FN 8mm(70rd boxes) and that all i can remember right now.

[Cheesehead]

We fired this Yugo ammo through two model 98s and one 48. The misfire rate was the same and the primers were deeply dented. I took one of the 98s out the following week and fired over 50 hand loads and no misfires. Its gotta be the ammo.

Cheese

[Mikey]

S. Sumner - you're my kind of guy.  I'll buy ya a beer any day.  Mikey.