Author Topic: Say Hello to the Standardized 30-30 Improved. Wow! (Read 2223 times)

jason280 · « **Reply #30 on:** November 12, 2006, 03:19:52 AM »

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But if the Krag cartridge was so hot why did they discontinue the caliber, when all they had to do is stick the Krag barrel on a #1 with no trouble

Probably the same reason they never stuck a .44 Mag barrel on a No. 1...

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Next he'll be claiming that the 30-40 Krag is good for everything from squirrils to moose. I see him as another form of Troll, just stirring the pot. Ignore him until he has something new to say.

Just my two cents.

Troll, maybe, but its hard to say. I just think he likes to play both sides of the fence, which ever suits him at the current moment. Kind of like when the .30-30AI threads began at the beginning of this year. I can remember him saying how they wouldn't work, and how you needed the barrels turned back, crush fit, etc, etc, ad nauseum (when at the time, he admittedly had little to no experience with the cartridge). It was the thread with myself and Lamar, who was subsequently banned, and has long since been removed from the site. Now, you won't hear Fred say a bad thing about the .30-30AI. In fact, he has been very supportive of it in the latest thread.

I really wish I could pull that thread up, as it would be very interesting to contrast his comments then to now. I think Fred has some decent insight to offer, but it seems he gets confused on which side of the road he wants to stand on...

Swampman · « **Reply #31 on:** November 12, 2006, 03:55:16 AM »

"I can remember him saying how they wouldn't work, and how you needed the barrels turned back, crush fit, etc, etc, ad nauseum (when at the time, he admittedly had little to no experience with the cartridge)."

No you can't, because I didn't say that. I feel the .30-40 is better than the "improved" because you can buy ammo. at the store which means that on a trip where you forgot your ammo. or it was lost in transit you could still hunt.

I like the .257 Roberts and the 7X57 in full stocked bolt action carbines.

I wouldn't want a 7mm-08 or a .25-06 in any kind of rifle.

I'm just posting my opinion like others here. I can do that right?

Mac11700 · « **Reply #32 on:** November 12, 2006, 04:36:55 AM »

I wonder how the new 308 Express will compare to a 30-40 Krag in real life...Looking at the pressures Hornady is stating for it...it looks closer to the Krag than the 308 for performance..Mt3030...What kind of performance have you gotten from your 30-40...

Mac

jason280 · « **Reply #33 on:** November 12, 2006, 04:40:05 AM »

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No you can't, because I didn't say that

No where in my post did I suggest uou stated that, Swampman...

Swampman · « **Reply #34 on:** November 12, 2006, 04:43:43 AM »

Thanks, I guess I misunderstood.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #35 on:** November 12, 2006, 05:18:17 AM »

Let me say this first off...Fred M is not a troll...he may have his own strong opinions of various cartridges...but he certainly isn't a troll.He may not understand the reasons folks would want a 30-40 Krag in a Handi when many of us do...especially when the 30-06 and the 308 are available...He may not like the new 308 Express...that's ok...We can discuss this like adults...which would be more benifcial to all here without the name calling so let's leave that out of it please.....Let's try to at least be cival in our responses as I know all of us can...and try to show him the reasons we would want either cartridge in a Handi...perhaps then he may understand our reasoning...We have a big advantage over the lever guns this new cartridge has been developed for...and that we could use any of the 308 bullets available were as the Marlins will only be able to use Hornady's propriatary soft points..or conventional tube safe bullets...It does give a boost the Marlins over the standard 30-30 while keeping pressures in line for that action...something our Handi's won't have a problem with...but I don't think it's enough of an advantage over what is available to us already for our Handi's...Now...in a new XLR...it just might be superb...and make the Marlin a very capable 300 yard lever gun..Is it enough of a increase to warrent it?...I don't know...I would like to see some real world figures on it...and see what folks are saying after it's been out a while and I would like to see Hornady release these bullet for Handloading......For now though...I would still like to see some real comparisions between the 30-40 and this one in a Handi...(.hint hint..

)

Mac

Swageall · « **Reply #36 on:** November 12, 2006, 06:30:12 AM »

jason280 · « **Reply #37 on:** November 12, 2006, 06:50:40 AM »

That's not the thread I am talking about. The thread I am referring to was at the early part of this year, around January or February. It was removed for some reason, and there is no history of it on the site now. Lamar had actually reamed a rifle for .30-30 AI, and him and I were discussing it, and I remember Fred blasting the idea. Its funny how much he has changed now, especially looking at the thread on page eight. I think Lamar actually copy/pasted the entire thread, so I'll have to shoot him an email. I'm sure Quick remembers the thread, so maybe he can provide some insight on what happened to it.

Nevertheless, I would like to see what one could do with a Krag in a Handi rifle, especially properly loaded. I think the results could be very impressive.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #38 on:** November 12, 2006, 07:32:19 AM »

I didn't find it either, it must have been deleted before the software change or it would be in the trash can, which it isn't. I'd just as soon forget it anyway, it wasn't one of our happiest moments, too many members have hard feelings on the matter and posting the text from it, if it's still available, is a bad idea as far as I'm concerned, no good will come from it, it will only cause more of a stir which we don't need.

Thx,

Tim

mt3030 · « **Reply #39 on:** November 12, 2006, 07:33:12 AM »

I was the one that used the word Troll, and it WAS NOT refering to Fred in any way. Fred is one of the most experienced and best contributers on the subject of Handis and gunsmithing. He has actually done the work himself, while the rest of us, as far as I know, just pay for the services of professional gunsmiths. (I'm not counting the basement/garage rechambers and trigger jobs done by many members.) If anyone thought I was refering to Fred, they need to reread my posts!

Mac11700 · « **Reply #40 on:** November 12, 2006, 08:26:46 AM »

Now that that is settled...could folks give their opinions on this new offering from Hornady and how they feel about it...I think we've come full circle here...and really should get back to the threads intent...

Here's my opinion on what I see so-far...I think it might do well in the rifle it is designed for..and could do ok out of our Handi's...I would much rather see a better case capacity increase for our Handi's since we aren't as limited to the pressure restictions the Marlin has at the present...and yes...I still would like to see it as a rimmed cartridge believe it or not...cause I know some folks would like to do some modifications to the existing barrels that have ejectors on them...I don't see it as a real need to have one...since as been stated we have the 308 and the 30-06...but...it does give a new option...and that isn't a bad thing...Will it do well...unknown..time will tell it's fate...most folks never gave the 444 Marlin a chance in the beginning either...and it is doing well at the moment...

Mac

jason280 · « **Reply #41 on:** November 12, 2006, 08:52:18 AM »

What exactly is the niche its intended to fill? This was attempted some time ago with the .307 and .356 Winchester cartridges, and sales were less than stellar. I truly do not see a big demand for what will probably be a $350-400 lever gun, when there are so many excellent bolt guns available in proven cartridges for right at $300. One of the biggest selling points for lever gun .30-30's over the years has been price. People bought 94's and 336's simply because they were almost $150-200 cheaper than bolt and semi-auto rifles. Of course, there have always been purists who prefer the lever design, but for the most part, people bought them as cheaper alternatives.

Now, I will admit that the new leverevolution bullets may make them more appealing, but I just don't see folks flocking to buy a .30 cal $350+ lever gun. .45-70's and pistol cartridges sell well at higher prices because of their limited availability in other platforms. I really want to see Marlin succeed in their ventures, but I don't see this one as a winner.

knight0334 · « **Reply #42 on:** November 12, 2006, 09:17:31 AM »

Being the Gemini that I am, I live in two extremes. if it isn't .224" or .458" calibers, I have no use for it. lol

Graybeard · « **Reply #43 on:** November 12, 2006, 10:17:39 AM »

The realities of life are such that "most" shooters really find no need for multiple examples of the same gun chambered to the same rounds. So if the manufacturers want to sell more and more new guns they feel the MUST keep coming up with new rounds to offer. Here in the real world it works to perfection.

Just look at all the interest already shown on this site regarding both the .308 Marlin and the .375 Ruger neither of which offer one single advantage over existing rounds but folks are clammoring for them in the guns to which they will initially be chambered and seem crazy to have one in other guns which would really be better suited to other rounds.

Case in point the Handi works fine with the .30-30 which is offered and if you need more then it's available in the .308 and .30-06 and I suspect maybe a magnum thirty as well. So realy all the bases are covered and no matter what .308" round you chamber it offers nothing those already chambered don't.

But the way we shooters are we always find something we WANT whether we need it or not and whether it fills any real world nitch or not. Ain't nuttin wrong with that.

The .307 Winchester was and is an excellent round and the .356 Winchester and even better one in my mind. But both died early deaths. Now folks are crying for the new .308 Marlin and wanting a .358" and .375" version as well. Geez it offers nothing the old rounds didn't and in all likihood it too will die just as surely and just as quickly as the Winchester rounds did. Actually I think that's what Marlin, Hornady and Ruger are hoping will happen. Why? So they can develop yet another new round that will once again generate that initial flurry of activity and make them new sales and new money. It's the way the gun industry lives or dies these days.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #44 on:** November 12, 2006, 06:27:36 PM »

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I truly do not see a big demand for what will probably be a $350-400 lever gun,

...well...you really won't see the need for a $600-$800 lever gun then...cause the XLR version isn't going to be the price of the normal levers unfortunatly...$600.00 plus is the norm for the XLR's in 30-30...444M...45-70...& the 450M...with the 35Rem due out by January...These new XLR 308E's will be more...I paid slightly more for my 45-70 XLR by the way...I'm one of those kinds that if it's what you want...then get it if ya can...Life's too short...and I need to enjoy it while I can...

I do hope they succeed...

Mac

mt3030 · « **Reply #45 on:** November 12, 2006, 06:38:21 PM »

Mac:

I agree. All of my Browning BLRs and several of my Marlin levers have cost over the $400.00 mark. Enjoy your hobby while you have the health and income. (And we wont even mention the costs of ARs now days!)

Mac11700 · « **Reply #46 on:** November 12, 2006, 07:13:43 PM »

OhhhhhYea....I saw a sweet AR-10 in 308...but that's for a different thread

Mac

quickdtoo · « **Reply #47 on:** November 12, 2006, 07:27:27 PM »

I guess I got a bargain, my NIB M81 BLR .308W cost me $330 in 1983, then put $300 in Leupold VariX/base/rings on it!

That took a while to smooth over with the wifey!!

Tim

LEO · « **Reply #48 on:** November 13, 2006, 03:27:58 AM »

I personally like the idea of the 308 express and look forward to it actually hitting the street. As far as the 307 and 356 win go they are fine cartridges and should have been much more of a success than they were. I think a big part of the problem with them was Winchester's production schedule/ability. I tried to get a 307or 356 for about 3 years and when I finally found one there was no ammo or brass available and since this case is not readily made from anything else, I didn't buy one. I have talked to numerous people who had similar experiences. Ammo/brass is easier to come by today than when the rifles were in production this may well be because of the ability to mail order them, but anyway. Will I buy a 308 express, I don't know, I will have to see what the actual preformance of the cartridge is and more importantly how the rifle that it is chambered in feels/handles, I know it interests me enough that I have decided to hold off on buying an XLR until I see one of the 308s

jason280 · « **Reply #49 on:** November 13, 2006, 06:15:50 AM »

$600-800, Wow! The reason the .45-70's and such (and pistol calibers) sell so well at their prices is because there really is no other platform available for them. A .30 caliber, on the other hand, is available in virtually any configuration you can imagine. Don't get me wrong, as I would like to see the concept succeed. However, I will still remain skeptical as I don't see it doing as well as some would hope. I mean, at $500 you can buy a Browning BLR in proven cartridges, cartridges you can buy at virtually any sporting goods store.

I see the idea as a good concept, kind of like the Remington Ultra Mags, WSSM's, WSM's and such, but we see how well they are doing. I just do not see the American public running out to spend $500 on a Marlin lever gun in .30 caliber. Hopefully I will be wrong, but at this point it is hard to say. One only has to look back a decade or so and consider the .307 and .356 to get an idea on what has happened the last time this was tried...

Quick, my BLR in .308 is one of my favorite guns. Mine is an original Belgium gun, and was manufactured around 1970 or so. I mounted a Pentax 2-5x on it, and the gun loves 180gr Remington Core-Lokts! I have kept my eye open for one in .358, and will snap it up if the price is right.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #50 on:** November 13, 2006, 06:21:42 AM »

Mine built in Japan shoots the 180gr Core-lokts and 180gr failsafes to the same POI, usually in a deer or elk, although it's taken a grouse head or two off, too!!!

Tim

Robert · « **Reply #51 on:** November 13, 2006, 06:45:22 AM »

Wow, that really did take off into left feild. But a lot of great points were made. It seems that the arguement of not duplicating the 307 is probably the best point. I guess it will just take a little time and wait for some of us to get our grubby hands on this cartridge to know for sure. Another point.....I still have a love for the antique design of the original 30-30 with the unique long neck. It sure works great for my 'thumper' loads with big long cast bullets in a single-shot. There arent many cartridges that have so much versatility for seating depth. But I am still excited to try this new one as well.

jason280 · « **Reply #52 on:** November 13, 2006, 06:50:59 AM »

The one good thing it does have over the older .307 round is the new pointed bullets, which will help sales.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #53 on:** November 13, 2006, 06:58:05 AM »

Quote from: jason280 on November 13, 2006, 06:15:50 AM

$600-800, Wow! The reason the .45-70's and such (and pistol calibers) sell so well at their prices is because there really is no other platform available for them. A .30 caliber, on the other hand, is available in virtually any configuration you can imagine. Don't get me wrong, as I would like to see the concept succeed. However, I will still remain skeptical as I don't see it doing as well as some would hope. I mean, at $500 you can buy a Browning BLR in proven cartridges, cartridges you can buy at virtually any sporting goods store.

I see the idea as a good concept, kind of like the Remington Ultra Mags, WSSM's, WSM's and such, but we see how well they are doing. I just do not see the American public running out to spend $500 on a Marlin lever gun in .30 caliber. Hopefully I will be wrong, but at this point it is hard to say. One only has to look back a decade or so and consider the .307 and .356 to get an idea on what has happened the last time this was tried...

Quick, my BLR in .308 is one of my favorite guns. Mine is an original Belgium gun, and was manufactured around 1970 or so. I mounted a Pentax 2-5x on it, and the gun loves 180gr Remington Core-Lokts! I have kept my eye open for one in .358, and will snap it up if the price is right.

Jason:

My dealer has a hard time keeping them in stock...and sales of the new XLR's have been rather brisk around here...Lever guns have always been a mainstay round these parts and have always sold well...and to me.. the new XLRs just plain feel better...The balance is durn near perfect..and the slimmed down forend is very pleasing...The other stainless version...the GS...has almost a club feel to it...While perfectly suited for the shortend version..Many folks are taking to the stainless versions...their ease of maintainance is a big plus..and the grey laminates are very nice as well...It makes a nice looking rig..

I missed my chance for a nice new BLR in 358 a few months ago...the price was the same as my XLR...oh well...

Mac