Conical load for Lyman .54

[Rum River]

I briefly mentioned in another thread that I'm trying to find a 100 yard conical load for my .54 Lyman GPH with the 32" twist. The closest I've gotten is T/C Maxi-Ball at 365grs. over 105grs of FFg Goex. These are literally free-falling into the muzzle, but three out of four were in three inches at 100 yards. The fourth was over six inches from it's nearest neighbor. None of the results I've gotten has been repeatable the next session at the range. To date I have tried the aformentioned load, minie ball, Hornady Great Plains in various weights, T/C Maxi-Hunters, and even some I'd never heard of before; Swif-Kik. All of these were tried with various amounts of FFg Goex, ranging from 80 to 120grs in 5 grain increments.

Anyone out there care to share their load for a similar barrel?

[slayer]

Hmmmmmmmmmm.......... free falling into the barrel isn`t good. When I load Maxi Balls into my T/C Renegade I have to use moderate force to get them in. Your Lyman nust have a larger bore than some .54`s. Maybe a wider conical is what is neaded, but I am not sure which one. Jack.

[Rum River]

I was wondering about bullets meant for the .54 Sharps combustible cartridges. I think they're like .541", but I seem to recall they have a rebated base and a sharp point.

Anyone know of some moulds out there that might work? I'm just getting into the casting, maybe I'd have better luck that direction.

Track of the Wolf had a minie design I tried (Rush Creek), those REALLY did the muzzle free-fall. At 80 grs. at 100 yards they were six to eight inches apart. I went in 5 gr. increments all the way to 110 grs. and it never improved, varied results with one 3-shot group over 18 inches. I have no idea what alloy these were, maybe it would be worth it to try some cast from pure lead.

What .54 conical moulds have people out there tried?

[flintlock]

The problem is you are trying to find an accurate conical load in a barrel that was made for sabots...
A 1 in 32 rifling is more suited for a 300 grain bullet, like a Hornady XTP inside a sabot...For conicals a 1 in 48 will preform better....I'm not saying that you won't find a conical that will group, but it could take a lot of experimenting...

[dodd3]

the first thing you should do is get the bore sluged,then you will no what size slug to you need.
bernie

[jh45gun]

The problem is you are trying to find an accurate conical load in a barrel that was made for sabots...
A 1 in 32 rifling is more suited for a 300 grain bullet, like a Hornady XTP inside a sabot...For conicals a 1 in 48 will preform better....I'm not saying that you won't find a conical that will group, but it could take a lot of experimenting...

I do not know what makes you think that? IF he finds the right size conical it should shoot fine I shoot conicals in my fast twist 1 in 28 barrels all the time. I prefer a conical over a sabot/bullet combination.

[dodd3]

Rum River just had a look at the tc site,you say your maxie is 365 grn i think you have .50 maxies as they list the .54 maxi ball  as 430 grn the .50 maxi ball as 370grn  the .50 maxi hunter as 350grn the .54 maxi hunter as 435 grn .get the size of the ones you have chequed have a look at the tc site and look at the bullet page hope this helps.
bernie
\\\ T/C Maxi-Hunter T/C's new CAD designed Maxi-Hunter® bullet incorporates all the features of the world famous Maxi-Ball®, superb accuracy and easy loading, with the added benefit of maximum expansion on deer sized game. The greatly improved terminal ballistics for deer sized game have made the Maxi-Hunter® the primary choice of those who specifically concentrate on hunting the special deer seasons. T/C's newly designed Maxi-Hunters are pre-lubed with Natural Lube 1000+ Bore Butter™, eliminating the need to wipe the bore clean between shots. Available in .45, .50, .54 or .58 caliber pre-lubricated.

Box of 20 Prelubed with Natural Lube 1000+ Bore Butter™
No.    CALIBER    WEIGHT
No. 7784    .45 Caliber    255 grs.
No. 7885    .50 Caliber    275 grs.
No. 7785    .50 Caliber    350 grs.
No. 7786    .54 Caliber    435 grs.
No. 7790    *.58 Caliber    560 grs.
*.58 cal. bullets sold in boxes of 15
T/C's Original Maxi-Ball® has been used extensively by target shooters and hunters for almost 20 years. Its reputation as an exceptionally accurate bullet which is easily loaded in the field is unequalled. The wide lubricating grooves allow generous amounts of lube, the key to easy and consistent loading. T/C Maxi-Balls are available in .45, .50, .54 and .58 caliber pre-lubed. Pre-lubed Maxi-Balls are lubricated with Natural Lube 1000+ Bore Butter™, eliminating the need to wipe the bore or clean between repeated shots. T/C's Maxi-Ball® is the preferred bullet of experienced hunters who look for the penetration needed for large game like Elk, Moose, or Bear.

Box of 20 Prelubed with Natural Lube 1000+ Bore Butter™
No.    CALIBER    WEIGHT
No. 7794    .45 Caliber    240 grs.
No. 7895    .50 Caliber    320 grs.
No. 7795    .50 Caliber    370 grs.
No. 7796    .54 Caliber    430 grs.
No. 7797    *.58 Caliber    555 grs.
*.58 cal. bullets sold in boxes of 15

[bub524]

You might want to look for a solid base or a very shallow hollow based bullet to try. I would stay away from Minnies. I have shot Minnies for many years from Springfields and Enfields. They are very meticulous to load and shoot. The base is very fragile and they are meant to shoot with low powder charges. For instance in a .58 cal. charges over 60 grains can tend to blow the skirt out and cant the bullet at the muzzle. The bullet is meant to almost fall down the barrel but the skrt spreadengages the rifling during combustion. With high pressure loads, if there is a soft spot or weak spot in the skirt this will blow out right at the muzzle. In your rifle you be better to use very soft lead bullets that will load easily but have the base upset or mushroom out on combustion, thus sealing the bore and engaging the rifling.
Having said all this I'm sure there are people who occassionally shoot minnies and have good luck with them with 150 gr.
I never have.
Typically the rifles that minnies were made for have a 1-60 something twist in a .58 caliber.
I shoot 40 gr. 2f or 3f and a 510 minnie. I can consistantly hit a 12" gong at 200yds. offhand with a 61 Springfield. You can almost reload from the time the gun goes off until you hear the gong, but it gets there very accurately.

[Rum River]

I just called home and had my son double-check the box label, they were definitely .54 Maxi-ball at 365grs. I also have some that are either 460 or 470 gr.(memory fade), and even some 530 gr.

I tried the 430g. yesterday, using FFg Goex and a CCI# 11 magnum cap. (I usually don't use magnums, but they were all I had.) Each 3 shot string was from a clean dry barrel. Cleaned with 10-1 Ballistol and a brass brush, followed by wet then dry patches. Snapped 3 caps to dry the touch hole. Had no misfires or hangfires. Worked the powder charge upward from 70 grs. in 5 gr. increments. All shots at 100 yards.

The lower charges were really bad, 18" to 24". No real improvement until 90 grs., they were slightly better. At 100 grs., they were close enough they could finally be addressed with the title: "group". They got as close as they ever did at 110 grs., six to eight inches. The fouling shot was included in that group size. I tried 115 grs. for one string with the same results, I'm guessing I ran out of barrel length, and the extra five grains got blown down range.

Next time out, I'll try the heavier bullet weights.

[Rum River]

Okay,today I was out and tried again. Worked with the 530gr Maxi-Ball pre-lubed. The loading-shooting-cleaning routine was identical to what I used in the last post. The only difference is the 530gr bullet.

I first tried 90grs. FFg, just once. The bullet hit the ground at 75 yards. "Nice dust ploom" was my wife/spotter's comment.

Bumped up to 100grs, and then 5 grain increments up to 120grs. The best group was the 100gr. at 6 1/2". All of the shots from 100 grs. on were loosely grouped around the bullseye with no sight correction from that 90 grain charge.

I have some Maxi-Hunters heavyweights I might as well try. Has anyone seen different results between Maxi-Ball and Maxi-Hunter in a similar bullet weight?

Am contemplating ordering some REAL bullets. It would be nice to give them a try before buying a mold.

[whitesmoke]

Rum River,

My 2 cents worth: There is no doubt that you will get that 1:32 to shoot with the right diameter bullets. I have a Lyman Great Plains Hunter in 1:32 twist and the bore is actually more like .52 than .50!! Had the same problem initially - could get it to group with heavier charges that made the bullet set up and grip the rifling - then I lucked into an oversized mould that throws a 425 gr conical and now she's shooting 2" 3 shot groups at 100 yards over the bench with as little as 70gr FFg. I have shot conicals as heavy as 497gr (a locally developed dangerous game bullet) out of her and they have stabilized beautifully - no need to shoot sabots. If the bore is oversized they will not work in any case.

What you also might try is to find some "triple diameter" bullets - don't know what you guys have over there, but here in South Africa we have a small company called Bushveld Muzzle Loader supplies that makes them - I think Hornady makes them over there. The front of the driving band is oversize by about 8 thou, and the bullet tapers down a little. It has a hollow base but a shallow and strong one and it works real well in all the rifles we have over here - even the ones that have slightly larger bores.

[Rum River]

Whitesmoke,

I have some REAL bullets on the way from Black Jack Hill casting in Florida.
If they work, I'm buying a mold to cast my own.

When they arrive, I'll do some testing and let people know how it went.

[Rum River]

I received my R.E.A.L. bullets from Black Jack Hill the other day, and made it to the range today.

Due to the range being full (muzzleloader season starts here next Saturday) I didn't have time to test full combinations for all of what I bought. (.54 cal REAL 300gr., .54 cal REAL 380gr, and .50 cal REAL 320gr.)

I tried the .54 REAL 300gr. with 80 grs. Goex FFg lubed by hand with bore butter. From a clean dry barrel all three grouped 3 inches exactly dead center at 50 yards with the same sight setting I use for the roundball load. (.535" with .015" bore butter patch over 80 grs. Goex FFg)

Obviously, I'm good to fifty. When I can, the in-depth testing for my 100 yard combination will begin.

For those familiar with the REAL bullets, how much effort have others needed to use to seat these? I have to say, these slid down the bore very easily. The uppermost band made the most contact ( which I believe is how these are designed? ), but the lower bands made hardly any contact at all. I use a brass range rod (from Northern Rifleman) and the weight of the rod itself was enough to push that REAL bullet halfway down the bore.

If people are interested, I'll post further results when I have them.

[longcaribiner]

REAL bullets ar supposed to be a bit stiff to push into the muzzle.  The lower bands are to be just slightly over land to land dimensions and the top band is supposed to be larger than groove to groove.  Most fellows complain about the effort to seat the bullet. 

A pure  lead bullet will upset slightly, (mash into the rifling) on ignition of the powder. 

I visited a bench rest muzzleloader club years back.  They did all manner of strange things.  One fellow cut two strips of paper and laid them in an x across the muzzle and then seated a bullet with a mallet and starter.  Another fellow had a two piece bullet cast of two different pieces of different hardnesses of lead.  Another had a bullet with felt pushed into the bullet grooves and then hard wax lubed.   

To me it sounds like your bore might be oversize.       

One thing you might try, is a shotgun wad over the powder and under the bullet.   As I recall, 54 would be close to a 28 ga.     
 

[Snowshoe]

My .50 cal Lyman Deerstalker has a slightly oversized barrel, and I had an awfull time getting it to shoot good groups. My rifle did like the Buffalo Bal-ets, and it made real good groups with a paper patched  Lee Mini. I like to shoot round balls so I kept looking and found that a .495 ball and a 18th pillow ticking patch, with a very little bit of Wonderlube on it and a bore button under the patched ball worked very good. It shoots 2 1/2" groups at 80 yards. So keep looking I am sure you will find a load that works, and when you do it feels great.

[Slamfire]

Git a 9/16" circle punch, and cut some overpowder wads from a milk or oj box. They'll seal the powder behint the bullet. You'll need a jag with a convex head, like the ones made to seat round balls. This will push the wad on the edges preventin' it from cockin' in the barrel. 

[sharps4590]

longcarabiner..

Actually, all those methods you mentioned the benchrest guys using go back a heck of a lotta years.  Ned Roberts mentions those and more.  One thing is for certain, a person can't argue with the results they got.

Vic

[Odinbreaker]

Try a couple of wraps of teflon tape to tighten up the bullet in the bore it will show you if that is the problem.