Keith or RNFP for .38 special

[willysjeep134]

Hey everybody,

I'm looking at bullet molds for .38 special slugs. I want a 158 gr bullet. I can't decide wether I would like an RNFP or Keith type bullet though. Both have a big meplat area. I was thinking that the Keith type may bee too much of a good thing and loose some penetration in the .38. I'm looking for an all purpose load here, so I would like to have plenty of penetration as well as shock. I was thinking an RNFP design might give some of the shock of a full SWC, but might penetrate a little better, say if I had to use it on some big animal. At .38 special velocities I would guess an RNFP would penetrate better than a SWC, but maybe it doesn't matter so much.

I suppose I could try some of both, but I don't have a really good test medium either, so I am looking for recomendations. Any advice?

[LAH]

I've used Keith bullets all my shooting life. Cast my first 1973 and sold them under Dry Creek Bullet Works for 4 years. The Keith is the best of the best IMHO. They shoot well slow or fast and unless matched to the wrong twist will make round holes in paper till nearly running out of steam.  Penetration is about as good as it gets. I like the Keith.

With that said, I'm shooting more and more RNFP's. Note here I'm not talking Cowboy but normal and full loads.  Some of the best of these RNFP designs are the Lyman Sliver Star moulds. Put simply, they work. A plus is they feed very well in lever guns and work great in speedloaders when charging sixguns. Course now my opinion and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee......Some places.

God Bless
Creeker 

[jpsmith1]

What, exactly, are you planning on shooting with the .38?  You say 'bigger animals' what defines bigger animals to you?  Coyote? Deer?  Bear?  Moose?

The .38 is about borderline for deer.  Sure, it will kill a deer and I do carry .38 loads in a .357 for a tracking gun, especially after dark, but a .22 LR will work for that purpose.  The local WCOs frown on shooting after dark, but I'll never face a living wounded deer unarmed again.

For deer hunting, I'd look at a bigger gun.  The difference in bullets is not going to turn a .38 into anything more than a .38.

[willysjeep134]

Seeing as I only own one cartridge handgun right now I was looking for a load that would do almost everything. I know I will be doing a lot of plinking, so I want a bullet that will work well in a standard velocity load. I also plan on small game hunting. I've been told that LRNs don't create enough shock to keep small game from running off, so I was looking for something with a flat nose.

 I also do a lot of camping and hiking. I don't live in big bear country, but blackbears and stray dogs aren't unheard of. I have camped many nights with no gun so the .38 would be just added insurance. What I would want there is a bullet that still penetrates well enough that if I had to shoot a bear it could reach something vital. I was thinking an LRN would be perfect for penetration, but it has shortcomings in many other areas. The noise alone would probably scare off most any bear in this part of the country. I don't have the funds or the inclination to get a gun specifically for bear defense because I don't see it as a major problem. Having some kind of gun with is better than nothing in the unlikely event I need it. Besides, there are some small game seasons open during camping season and I think it would be neat to shoot some meat for the pot on occasion.

I also deer hunt. Over the years I have sort of become the camp tracker. If I find the animal, usually it is already dead. I can just carry my deer rifle, which works fine, but I might want the handgun in some circumstances. If I don't know where the deer was hit, that is if I am tracking for one of my relatives at camp, I might need to make a body shot if the animal isn't dead and is capable of moving. This would not be a norma circumstance I don't think. Any ammo in any gun would work for a finishing head shot, but if I need to shoot for the body I would want something that would penetrate, yet create some shock as well.

I am thinking about buying a mould, so I want to get a design that will work well for almost anything. I suppose I can get a few factory made bullets if I have a need for something the mould can't do, but I want to make and practice with one all-purpose load.

I am leaning more towards the RNFP 158gr by Lee. This mould almost looks like a truncated cone bullet with a little bulge. Some RNFPs I've seen look like a cylinder with a radiused edge. The Lee has a sharp leading edge. In fact, it almost looks like a SWC where the nose blends into the forward shoulder.

Another issue I may face is how well the bullets feed in speed loaders. I don't have a CCW right now, but if I do I might want a speed loader or two in my pocket as well. I've heard where the sharp shoulders of SWCs can hang up on the edge of the cylinder. The LEE RNFP looks like it actually has a bigger flat on the nose than the LEE SWC, but the SWC has the front shoulder where as the RN doesn't. I think the RNFP would be slightly easier to use from a speed loader.


One final issue is the SWC takes a gas check. I know you can load a GC bullet without the GC, but I'm afraid that might lead to some leading, as the powder gasses might be able to work in behind the reduced lead shank of the bullet. I don't think it would be a major issue, but I would just as soon have a plain base bullet like the LRNFP by LEE.

[jpsmith1]

For what you are describing, then the .38 should suffice with good placement, which it sound like you're capable of doing.  I load SWCs in .38, .357, and .45 colt with very little leading problems and do not use gas checks.

Since you mention casting your own bullets, you may want to check with Veral Smith (on this site) his LBT style bullets are legendary for penetration.  Cast from a hard alloy (20-23 Bhn) and driven to max, they have been used on every game on the planet.  I'm not sure that he makes moulds for .38/.357, but he may make you one.

You may be in a position to need 2 loads.  One for plinking and one for business.  The .38 +p is fairly potent and should give the penetration that you'd require.

[jd45]

As I understand it either one will do , but I'd think a bullet dropped from a genuine Keith-designed mould would have an edge. While the RNFP is better than a LRN because it has a meplat, the Keith SWC has a thick front driving band outside the case above the crimp groove that's full caliber, punching a big sharp-sided hole in either paper or critter.....easier to see, and/ or letting out more blood. Also, It'll have a better designed lube groove to keep leading to a minumum, and a nose that'll give better long range accuracy, If you choose to make those shots. BUT, & this is a BIG BUT.......it's gotta be a genuine Keith design, or all bets are off. Just my 2 cents, JD45

[cherok9878]

jeep134, I have and use both Keith SWC 158  and the Lee 358 158 RNFP. I have almost quit shooting the Keith, the Lee feeds thru my rossi 92 clone like butter and my 38 and 357 pistols seem to take to this bullet with speed loaders better than the Keith(shoulder hang up). Penetration seems to be about equal with both drive to the same speed.
The kicker for me is the Lee six hole mould for the 358 158 RNFP drops bullets like rain, it can be pushed to the max in a 38 with Lee Liquid Alox and has a plain base, no need to purchase Gas Checks. Just my opinion, hope this helps........................larry

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I shoot that Lee RNFP that you speak of with great frequency.  In fact I started with a 2-cavity mold, then got a 6-cavity mold since I used so many of them.

Those loaded on top of 21 grains of Swiss FFFg black powder are fun.

I also shoot Lee's 158 grain SWC and RN with the tumble lube grooves.  There is a bigger difference in terminal performance between the RN and the SWC than there is between the RNFP and the SWC.  So you're thinking correctly.

If you want my advice, I'd base the choice between SWC and RNFP on other factors than terminal performance.  Such as feeding through a lever action, lubing techniques and types.  The RNFP is nice for my lever guns, and for black powder.  The SWC is nice for tumble lubing.  The RNFP seems to tolerate greater velocities, but we're talking .357 mag now, both will do nicely at .38spl velocities.

If you want to play with terminal performance alter the velocity, and alter the lead with which you cast.  Plumbers lead for maximum expansion, wheel weights for maximum penetration.  That will probably make the biggest difference.