Author Topic: Accuracy from Handi's - Am I expecting too much? UPDATE 12/16/06! (Read 4854 times)

MSP Ret · « **Reply #30 on:** December 02, 2006, 03:11:06 PM »

I have forwarded a picture to Quick of a test group I fired right after fitting a new/used standard contour .223 barrel to one of my Handi frames about a year ago and asked him for some help in posting it. I shot it with inexpensive .223 Remington 55 grain HP's and was I believe the second group shot out of the barrel by me to sight it in after fitting the barrel and boresighting it. Sometimes you just get a shooter!!!!....<><....

(that is an old mercury head dime next the group for evaluating group size)

P.S. - could someone please run me through posting a picture 101 again? Thanks....<><....

rascals · « **Reply #31 on:** December 02, 2006, 03:49:07 PM »

I can understand your frustration with your handi. I was having some of the same problems as you with my HB .243 for about 3 - 4 weeks and 200-300 rounds. Took the o-ring out from under the forearm and laid a 3/4 inch piece of foam weatherstrip in the barrel chanel of the forearm the full length and really tightened the screw down good. The other things that i did was stone the barrel latch to get better engagment( it was very poor when I checked it,this i belive is a big reason for verticle stringing of shots ). I also recrowned the barrel( very easy!).Do not know which of these mod,s made the most difference,but the groups went from 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 inches to under 1''. I still have a hint of vert. stringing, will be installing a heavier barrel latch spring in the near future.Hope this gives you some ideas.
Tim D.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #32 on:** December 02, 2006, 03:59:22 PM »

MSP, there's a link in our FAQ to the pic posting sticky in the Black Powder Mortar and Canon forum.

Glad to see you made some progress, Rascals!!

Tim

MSP Ret · « **Reply #33 on:** December 02, 2006, 04:35:35 PM »

Thanks Tim, I have looked it up the instructions for posting pictures and have read them, could not understand some of the terms let alone what to do with them. Since I sent you a copy of my previous avatar to see it it could be re-inserted I have lost it from the "my pictures" section of my computer

...
I am going to impose on my daughter when she is home for the Christmas holidays to see if she can help me, if that is possible, to again be able to post pictures and to see if she can relocate my avatar, however I am afraid except for the attachment in the e-mail it may be gone for good. I at one time was able to post pictures now I'm just happy to remember to put my pants on before I leave the house, especially in the winter!!!....<><....

quickdtoo · « **Reply #34 on:** December 02, 2006, 04:41:39 PM »

MSP, you can right-click any pic and save it to your PC, your avatar is now showing, right-click it and choose "save picture as"....

Tim

MSP Ret · « **Reply #35 on:** December 02, 2006, 04:44:08 PM »

THANKS QUICK!!!, Tim buddy, you are the best!!! I will try to become more computer literate....<><....

P.S. - with your instructions I was able to retrieve it and place it into my picture files again!! Thanks...

quickdtoo · « **Reply #36 on:** December 02, 2006, 04:46:55 PM »

You're very welcome, now if we can just get acloco's guns to shoot good, we'd be doing great!!

Tim

MSP Ret · « **Reply #37 on:** December 02, 2006, 04:57:57 PM »

Just to show him our hearts are in the right place, if he wanted to send his guns to us for a year or so I am willing, and I am sure you would be also, to work on them, shoot them, have our way with them, and then return them to him, all broken in so to speak, after all, we Handiholics must stand together, right?....<><....

acloco · « **Reply #38 on:** December 02, 2006, 06:32:49 PM »

Quote from: MSP Ret on December 02, 2006, 04:57:57 PM

Just to show him our hearts are in the right place, if he wanted to send his guns to us for a year or so I am willing, and I am sure you would be also, to work on them, shoot them, have our way with them, and then return them to him, all broken in so to speak, after all, we Handiholics must stand together, right?....<><....

I am not sure what to say....wait...yep....NOPE! LOL!

I picked up some RE-15 on the way back from the range today. I am going to give that a try as well.

First, I am going to look at the lockup and the plastic pivot to hinge spacing/alignment. I believe that I am going to JB or Devcon a light coat, assemble, and let sit a couple days.

I will be checking torque on the buttstock of each rifle. I will also float the forends completely - either with foam strip or silicone the entire length.

Honestly, I would be happy with 1" groups. If they were consistent 1" groups.

As I indicated in the first or follow up posts, if accuracy was easy, then everybody would be able to shoot well, all of the time, and these rifles, along with life, would be too easy.

Time will tell....time will tell.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #39 on:** December 03, 2006, 03:51:25 AM »

When I see a group like this on my targets...I know in all likely hood that I was the cause of the 2 random flyers...This rifle and load needs to be shot again...It's not the easiest to maintain shooting a good group with a Handi...It takes lots of practice...but anytime I can put 3 right at 1/2"...then 2 way out...it's usually not the rifles or ammunitions fault...but mine ...

These aren't benchrest rifles...but hunting rifles...allthough some can shoot close to benchrest groups...Somefolk can't get great 5 shot groups from a Handi...for various reasons...moving your head around on the stock just a little bit and getting a slightly different site picture can and does cause this very samething...

Mac

acloco · « **Reply #40 on:** December 03, 2006, 10:29:38 AM »

Max - Rifle was bagged, very well.

I don't think it is the shooter. I finished my range session with this group from my 223.

McLernon · « **Reply #41 on:** December 03, 2006, 03:07:51 PM »

Hello acloco:

I must chime in at this point. I have read allot and used quite a bit of Hodgdon 'extreme' powders such as H4895 but with less than satisfactory results. From what I have read and a bit of experience with the .204 I think that your powder selection may not be the best. H355 or BL-C(2) might give better results. BL-C(2) fills the case better. Also, you can have a cold weather as well as hot weather load so temperature sensitivity can be address with ball powders. Also does your C.O.L. put you near the rifling. In my .204 I can reach the rifling with a good 0.100 inch of the bullet in the case. Yhis could be an important variable. At any rate it appears that you are making progress and I want to wish you success. I will be watching your posts for ant .204 related info.

McLernon

Sportfaller · « **Reply #42 on:** December 03, 2006, 03:52:19 PM »

Have you tried a very firm rest like a caldwell lead sled? When I first tuned my 204 handi in I shot of a very firm bench with a caldwell lead sled and a hydraulic trigger. With factory loads I was shooting sub ¼ inch groups. I have since added a choate synthetic varmint stock, and haven’t grouped it much, but I’m still killing gophers at 250 yards. If I were to venture a guess, I’d say it was mostly a scope issue… but I’m far from any expert!

check out www.204ruger.com/forums for good load work up info!

mitchell · « **Reply #43 on:** December 03, 2006, 04:09:12 PM »

take the 40 vmax and the berger's and start playin with powder then OAL, as for the chance of it being the shooter , i know i've shot groups in the .2's just to fallow by a group around a inch , crap happens man.

hey and +1 on the bl-c2 and H355 give em a shoot with the bergers and let your barrel cool between shots , try shooting 4, 3 shot groups , to me i learn more from 4 , 3shots then i do 2 , 5 shots.

also take some irons out of the fire first your doin too much focus on those bergers , thats what ny gut says

acloco · « **Reply #44 on:** December 03, 2006, 05:43:16 PM »

Quote from: McLernon on December 03, 2006, 03:07:51 PM

Hello acloco:

I must chime in at this point. I have read allot and used quite a bit of Hodgdon 'extreme' powders such as H4895 but with less than satisfactory results. From what I have read and a bit of experience with the .204 I think that your powder selection may not be the best. H355 or BL-C(2) might give better results. BL-C(2) fills the case better. Also, you can have a cold weather as well as hot weather load so temperature sensitivity can be address with ball powders. Also does your C.O.L. put you near the rifling. In my .204 I can reach the rifling with a good 0.100 inch of the bullet in the case. Yhis could be an important variable. At any rate it appears that you are making progress and I want to wish you success. I will be watching your posts for ant .204 related info.

McLernon

First off - I have said this before....but THANKS for the info, tips, suggestions, kind words, and words of wisdom!!!!!

McLernon - I have tried everything but BLC-2. Do you mean H335?

Varget, H335, H4895, Benchmark, H322 , AA3460, IMR4198, IMR4064, & IMR3031 are powders that I have tried.

Have tried the following primers - CCI400, CCI450, BR4, WW, 7.5's, CCI 41's, Fed 205, Fed Match, and couple more that I have forgotten.

I am going to try Reloader 15 - that should definitely give me a good case fill. But, ugh...will have to work that up with various primers. I think I have 15 left of each of the flavors. Of note, kind of an interesting powder, judging by the load books...a little faster at the muzzle with lower chamber pressures. HMMMMM!!!

Yes, have tried getting closer to the lands on the bullets. Within 0.015"....and same as you...end up with 0.105 left in the neck (don't have my notes in front of me...but that was close...it IS under an 1/8" (0.125").

If nothing else, through this process, if you drop a small rifle primer on the floor, I can identify that puppy by the color! LOL!

acloco · « **Reply #45 on:** December 03, 2006, 05:49:45 PM »

Quote from: Sportfaller on December 03, 2006, 03:52:19 PM

Have you tried a very firm rest like a caldwell lead sled? When I first tuned my 204 handi in I shot of a very firm bench with a caldwell lead sled and a hydraulic trigger. With factory loads I was shooting sub ¼ inch groups. I have since added a choate synthetic varmint stock, and haven’t grouped it much, but I’m still killing gophers at 250 yards. If I were to venture a guess, I’d say it was mostly a scope issue… but I’m far from any expert!

check out www.204ruger.com/forums for good load work up info!

Hmmm.....I am going to try a different scope....just to eliminate that.

Forgot - I do not have a sled or access to one...and too expensive to justify.

204ruger.com is where I swapped some bullets to get 32 BK's, 39 BK's, & 35 Bergers! LOL!

acloco · « **Reply #46 on:** December 03, 2006, 05:59:27 PM »

Quote from: mitchell on December 03, 2006, 04:09:12 PM

take the 40 vmax and the berger's and start playin with powder then OAL, as for the chance of it being the shooter , i know i've shot groups in the .2's just to fallow by a group around a inch , crap happens man.

hey and +1 on the bl-c2 and H355 give em a shoot with the bergers and let your barrel cool between shots , try shooting 4, 3 shot groups , to me i learn more from 4 , 3shots then i do 2 , 5 shots.

also take some irons out of the fire first your doin too much focus on those bergers , thats what ny gut says

Appreciate the comments. Has not been a "shotgun" approach from the beginning. I am not super anal....but darn close when it comes to reloading. It IS just my life, limb, & eyes that I am playing with.

I actually widened my process by including the 6 different bullets....because only using 32 & 40 grain Hornady's was not giving me a large enough diversion.....to narrow of focus.

I am taking items out of the equation - backed up the COAL to recommended book standards. Brass prep - all brass is prepped the same as any of the other calibers that I reload for (17 Rem, 223, 243, 6.5x55, 270, 7.5x55, 30/30, 45/70, 357 Mag, 44 Mag).

acloco · « **Reply #47 on:** December 05, 2006, 06:10:10 PM »

Loaded 6 groups of three rounds each of Reloader 15 last night.

The Alliant Reloader 15 powder went through the measurer VERY well for a stick powder. Same or nearly the same size of sticks as H4831SC (short cut).

Hopefully will go Friday for a mini range session again.

acloco · « **Reply #48 on:** December 10, 2006, 01:45:26 PM »

Couple more pics. Rifle definitely does not like 45 SP (keyholing).

35 Bergers looked ok again.

Pic #1 - I shot the remaining ammo that I loaded from the "find the best primer". 8 different primers. These were loaded with the Hornady scale that I have been using for 2 years.

Pic #2 - loaded the following with an RCBS 10/10:

32 gr VMax with H4895 - 5 rounds, 0.1 gr at a time
32 gr BK's - same
35 gr Bergers - same
39 gr BK's - same
40 gr VMax - same
45 gr SP - same (NOTE!! See the keyholing!!!)

And 10 rounds each...working up a load of RE-15
32 gr VMax
32 gr BK

Results:

Conclusion? I believe this is a scope problem. Why? The two pictures on this thread are out of a new Savage 204, but with the same scope. I am going to mount another scope tonight and hopefully get to the range on Mon/Tues/Wed to give the final results.

acloco · « **Reply #49 on:** December 10, 2006, 01:51:00 PM »

Quote from: Cknerr on November 25, 2006, 03:12:16 AM

Your rifle prep seems to be pretty good. Your wandering through the differant powders and bullets seems to be broad enough too.

...and you know about trigger pull etc. BTW, the sling swivels (front/rear) are not hitting the bags during recoil?

a couple of other areas to check/work on: is the innards of the scope bouncing around? This is a common problem. Make a big square with the adjustment knobs and see if it makes any differance. If it does, then problem most likely solved. Just went through FOUR Leuopolds, the best moved my POI around 1/2" at 100yrds. The worst was 3" at 25 yards - not a typo! (I'm not a happy camper) If possible, find someone who shoots BR and borrow their scope checker. You might be told to go away, but they may be willing to help. Their scopes do not move and make a good reference with the scope checker.

The other is OAL of your cartidge. It can make a big a differance. Copper jackets on bullets require differanct lead lengths. Soft copper wants a tiny jump, hard copper wants a big jump....usually. Each bullet maker uses a differant formula for their jackets, and can even change between bullets types. I try an 1/8 of a turn on my bullet seater between groups when I have the powder charge dialed in.

If this doesn't help, can you post a few pictures of your groups? That might help.

Good luck,
Chris

Chris, on one hand, I completely HOPE that you are right. But on the other hand, I kind of liked the scope.

I am miffed about the 300 rounds down the tube....tossed time and money in the air.

Should be able to confirm in a couple of days.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #50 on:** December 10, 2006, 01:54:44 PM »

I know you said you checked your crown, have you ever thought of just selling the barrel to a hunter who would be satisfied with it and trying a another new or used barrel? It is a quandry for sure....<><....

acloco · « **Reply #51 on:** December 10, 2006, 02:17:52 PM »

MSP - check the fine print. The last two pictures of groups, shot today, are from a different rifle.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #52 on:** December 10, 2006, 02:48:47 PM »

Your right , I did not read all the way down!!!....<><....

acloco · « **Reply #53 on:** December 10, 2006, 03:02:00 PM »

Just a little peaved myself. Guess that is part of life though.

Will post when I go to the range next. I think the only scope that I have as an extra is a 3-9 Bushnell!

acloco · « **Reply #54 on:** December 16, 2006, 05:45:37 AM »

Just returned from the range. Mounted my only spare scope - 3-9 Bushnell scope. 5 barrel warming shots, followed by five on target. I did not zero the scope at the range, but knew that it was on paper....so...fired five.

Will post a pic of the target later, but it looks like a 1.1" group. Mr. Scope will be in the mail on Monday.

Will post a picture of final sight in when the scope comes back or I purchase another scope for this rifle.

Thanks to everybody for the help.

acloco · « **Reply #55 on:** December 16, 2006, 03:22:49 PM »

Just a touch over the size of a quarter. Which is awesome, considering the little scope used. Could easily wiggle 1/2" and not know it while using this scope (cheap Bushnell 3-9).

Mac11700 · « **Reply #56 on:** December 16, 2006, 04:17:48 PM »

Super...hopefully the new scope will be better this time...I must commend all your hard work with this...Many here would have given up a long time ago...and shrugged it off as a problem with a faulty rifle...You haven't...Congratulations on finding the real accuracy culprit...Yours is a shinning example to others of how to detail the trial and error of diagnosing accuracy woes...

...Keep us posted on it...especially when you get your new scope on it...

Mac

acloco · « **Reply #57 on:** December 16, 2006, 05:45:32 PM »

Thanks Mac.

It was tough. Frustrating. Irritating. Near blastphemy! LOL!

I am not full of myself or have low self esteem...but...I really questioned my loading process, equipment, etc, etc. I even bought another rifle in 204, because I liked the round so much.

Of note, not sure if it was on this thread or not, but one gentleman is on his 4th high dollar Leupold scope. This can happen to any manufacturer.

At least this one is almost behind me now.

Of interest, now my attention will be turning to my Handi in 243 after the first of the year.

I will keep everybody posted.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #58 on:** December 16, 2006, 09:03:55 PM »

Good Luck with it...Hopefully you will get to see what I and others have with it...

Mac

Cknerr · « **Reply #59 on:** December 17, 2006, 05:19:50 AM »

That was me with the 4 Leo scopes that died. Got the last one returned to me this past weekend. That makes #5! I am so discussted with them that I just threw it up on a shelf. That was an entire order of 5 scopes , 3 differant configurations that went bad. I had to eat the cost differance between them + shipping and the replacements. You can believe the replacements where not Leos! Now I have them and gets me more upset is what to do with them....put them on my rifles because they are so expensive I can not replace them all...looks like I support them because all my rifles have their POS. rrrrrrr!!!!!! (like to know what I really think of Leo scope? )

Well, when I am rich and famous I'll get real scopes for my babies.

Chris