Author Topic: Marvel: A hunka hunka burnin love (Read 2376 times)

Questor · « **on:** March 02, 2006, 07:44:53 AM »

I put a Marvel conversion unit on my Kimber and it's great. I get to pull the trigger of my 1911 while shooting 22. Weight is very close to a 45 caliber 1911. According to the factory test it shoots .65" groups at 50 yards. This thing is MUCH nicer than the Kimber 22 I handled a while back.

The only real advantages to this unit are that you get a 1911 trainer to use at .22 prices, and you can get a good accurate .22 without having to buy a new gun. The disadvantages are that it's ergonomics are not as good as a true match .22 like a Pardini or Hammerli, and the slide doesn't lock back after the final shot. Conversion from 1911 to 22 takes a couple of minutes and only involves one tool that is used to secure the conversion unit.

I've only shot the unit in what Marvel calls "extreme cold", i.e., under 40F and when using Aguila Standard Velocity or RWS target ammo the gun does not fully cock about 2/3s of the time. This may be because the unit is new and because it's colder than it's designed to work in. I'll see if it loosens up with use. Everyone else I know that has one can use CCI Standard Velocity reliably under normal match conditions. The interim solution is to use Federal Walmart bulk ammo. It's high velocity ammo and cycles the gun reliably when shooting in the cold.

This is a nice looking unit too, and very well made.

Questor · « **Reply #1 on:** March 06, 2006, 03:16:46 AM »

After shooting it some more I find that there appears to be a break-in period required. I also found that temperatures in the 30s yield unreliable cycling regardless of whether the ammo is high velocity or standard velocity. It just won't cock the hammer and the colder it gets the less frequently it cocks the hammer successfully. This seems like a real drawback to us northern shooters who consider 30F shirt-sleeve weather and drive around with the windows open when the temp is 32F. Once it went into full auto when I tried shooting Federal Walmart bulk ammo. I had just taken the gun out of its relatively warm box and it was cooling rapidly to the ambinent temperature of the indoor range, which was about 35F.

On the lighter side of the news I find that I make the same mistakes with this conversion as I do when shooting the 45, at least in slow-fire which is all I am able to do now given the unreliability of cycling in cold temps. It's nice to be able to really follow through a 1911 shot and see why I got that 6 to the right or that 6 to the lower left. Recoil goes out of the equation so it's rather like dry firing, but with confirmation of a hit.

I'm sold on the concept as a sound way of getting more value out of an existing 1911. I will have to follow up with Marvel about the cocking issue. It may be as simple as having a separate main spring and housing (easily changed seasonally if the gun is not intended to be also used for 45.)

Questor · « **Reply #2 on:** March 06, 2006, 04:25:55 AM »

One further impression in having used the gun is that the weight and balance is so much like a regular 1911 that it seems to have that advantage over, at least, the Kimber model if you want your 1911 style 22 to match the 45 as closely as possible.

By the way, I couldn't reproduce the full auto quirk. Apparently 3 shots fired in one burst, leaving one cartridge remaining in the magazine. If you've never experienced this, as I hadn't, then it's quite alarming. (It sounds kinda neat, though.)

Questor · « **Reply #3 on:** March 09, 2006, 02:18:57 AM »

Trip 3 to the range and things are getting better. It was a few degrees warmer today and the gun cocked on all but a few of 150 rounds fired in practice for slow, timed, and rapid fire. The bullseye shooter's trick of putting a drop of oil on the top round in the magazine helped. Ammo is CCI Standard Velocity.

If it doesn't shoot with 100 percent reliability at 50F temperature, then I'll be kind of upset and will have to look for a solution. Marvel does say that openly that 40F is the bottom end of its operating temperature. I really expect it to be reliable right down to 40F.

Questor · « **Reply #4 on:** March 13, 2006, 03:49:13 AM »

Up to about 300 rounds now. Gun seems to be settling in nicely. Temps are high 40's and low 50's now so I don't know if reliability is due to higher temps or break-in.

Questor · « **Reply #5 on:** March 15, 2006, 04:52:19 PM »

Temps dropped back down and gun fails to cock the hammer fully again. Reliability seems temperature dependent with about 40F being the critical temperature.

Questor · « **Reply #6 on:** March 27, 2006, 04:09:33 AM »

Temperatures consistently in the 40s now. About 700 rounds through conversion unit. No failures of any kind since temps have warmed into 40s. It's great to shoot a 1911 with 22s because of the cost and the convenience. I've been taking the 45 along with me but it has remained unfired for over a week because the kind of training I want to do now is just as well performed with a .22.

Ammo is CCI Standard Velocity.

I cleaned it after about 300 rounds by taking the conversion unit off. It didn't take much more that a wiping with a rag to complete the procedure. This means that cleaning the gun is about a five minute job, excluding bore cleaning.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #7 on:** March 27, 2006, 09:28:48 PM »

Hey Questor, take a look around!!

Questor · « **Reply #8 on:** March 28, 2006, 02:59:40 AM »

Questor · « **Reply #9 on:** March 30, 2006, 04:17:34 AM »

RWS Target Rifle ammo is OK too, but I'd rather not use it in this gun because
a) It's more expensive than the perfectly adequate CCI Standard Velocity
b) The waxy coating leaves excessive deposits around the breech of the gun. This is true for this excellent ammo in other guns too.

Next ammo to try is some Aguila standard velocity that I'll use up because it's been good low-cost practice ammo for timed and rapid fire.

No tests of high velocity ammo are forthcoming in this target pistol.

Walther "WALTHER DRY FIRE SAFETY PLUG" are great in this gun because they permit dry firing. These are the best rimfire dry firing aids I've found for semi autos.

Interesting to note that the magazines for the conversion unit are made by Colt.

Questor · « **Reply #10 on:** April 17, 2006, 03:39:34 AM »

Probably my final post on this:

The Marvel has proven to be a good 45 trainer for me because I shoot it just like the 45. Most of good precision shooting is in managing the trigger, so having the 1911 trigger available, and set to the 4 pound weight has been great. I get the benefit of shooting the 45 while shootiing the .22. This gives me a lower cost gun that is easier to clean than the 45.

Can this tool be a good general purpose semi-auto? Not for the cold weather shooter, as you can see from my earliest posts on the topic. But for target shooting in temps above 40F it's been really good.

If I wanted a 22 for something other than practice for bullseye shooting, I'd get something ergonomically better than the 1911. The Buckmarks and Rugers are superior in this regard.

In short, this conversion unit has been everything I hoped it would be: A good 45 trainer for bullseye shooting. It would undoubtedly be a good trainer for other 1911-related games. The units are available with iron sights only, Weaver rail only, and iron sights and rail combined onto one conversion. Their market is target shooters who want a 22 caliber 45 trainer and it's clear that they've perfected their product for that purpose.

One thing I like about the Marvel conversion unit is that the firing pin strike is large and strong. It leaves a good impact mark in the rim of the case. Not all 22s have this quality, so it's nice to encounter it.

Ramblings on ammo:
Also tried the Aguila standard velocity ammo and it worked fine in temperatures in the 50s and 60s. Didn't function well below 40F (but then again, the unit didn't function well with any ammo below 40F.) This Aguila ammo is about the cheapest decent standard velocity ammo you can get. It's great practice ammo and is suitable as match ammo if the gun is reliable with it. I can use the Aguila, RWS Target Rifle, and CCI Standard Velocity interchangeably in the unit without making sight adjustments. My preference is the CCI standard velocity because it seems to be the cleanest burning, it's economical, and it performs well. I can't remember the last time I got a dud in CCI SV. In fact, I don't know if I've ever gotten a dud in CCI SV. Overall, I've found CCI SV to be the best of breed for target ammo in pistols. It's got the optimal blend of accuracy, reliability, and low cost. It even works in guns like the Pardini, which is supposed to use only European ammo to be reliable. It also has the advantage of not being coated with the gooey lubricant that the RWS and Eley ammos are coated with. This reduces the amount of cleaning required.

So in short, CCI Standard Velocity plus a Marvel Conversion Unit is a great combination for the shooter who wants a great 45 trainer. I'd buy another one, and that's my highest praise.

slink · « **Reply #11 on:** April 19, 2006, 03:42:15 PM »

put on paste car wax everyplace that there's no friction, as a rust preventive. On friction points, use a VERY little Lockease Graphite. You problem is two fold. The cold weather reduces the burn of the powder, and it stiffens-up your springs and gun-oil. Get rid of the gun oil,and use hi v ammo. The x ring is 2" in diameter, nobody fires perfect x scores, and 2/3rds of the match is shot at 25 yds, with the same sized scoring rings as the 50 yd slowfire target. So you can't make use of anything like sub 2" groups at 50 yds. so why waste the money on the match ammo? It's pointless,a nd the stuff is too wussy loaded to cycle the gun reliably.

Questor · « **Reply #12 on:** April 20, 2006, 03:06:40 AM »

Reliability is a greater issue than anything else in bullseye shooting. The CCI SVs are adequately accurate, but above all they are reliable. That's why people use them.

slink · « **Reply #13 on:** April 20, 2006, 12:31:24 PM »

timed fire is 20 seconds for 5 shots, plenty of time to clear a malfunction. Rapidfire, they get "alibi runs", which are often used to make up for a called bad shot. All you have to do is stick your thumb against the side of the slide, causing a malfunction, when you see that 1 or more of your hits was way out of the group, and you'll get to shoot that string of fire over again.

Questor · « **Reply #14 on:** April 20, 2006, 02:34:48 PM »

Slink:

That's not the way it works. You lose tens for taking alibis. Good shooters don't like alibis because it almost always means lost points.

slink · « **Reply #15 on:** April 21, 2006, 02:33:10 AM »

either not fired at all, due to malfunction, or 1-2 shots jerked all the way out into the 5-ring. That IS how it works. There IS plenty of time to clear malfunctions in slowfire, and time enough to clear ONE in timed fire, too. Timed fire is an extra 10 seconds over rapidfire, same range, same target. It would be a helluva malfunction that's not clearable in 5 seconds, and most are removed in 2 seconds or less.

Questor · « **Reply #16 on:** April 25, 2006, 03:40:45 AM »

One more note on the Marvel: When I first put it on I tried racking the slide as I usually do with a bullseye gun: by gripping the red dot sight and pulling backward. That does't work with the Marvel because the top of the "slide" doesn't move. Only a relatively small sliding part (similar to the S&W 41 and the Browning Buckmark) moves to the rear.

At first I thought I had installed the conversion unit incorrectly. :oops:

Am still enjoying this unit. Very useful. So long as the temperature is warm enough, it uses all ammunitions I've tried reliably. Just tried some Walmart/Federal bulk ammo in it for fun and it works fine. However, CCI Standard Velocity will be what I use normally.

Questor · « **Reply #17 on:** May 18, 2006, 07:10:46 AM »

Cleaning the Marvel:
You can do it quicker and less thoroughly, but this gets the job done pretty thoroughly:
1) Remove the conversion unit and scrub around the breech with a solvent soaked toothbrush.
2) Run a solvent soaked patch through the bore, then follow up with a dry patch.
3) Spray the unit down with gun spray cleaner.
4) Run a lightly oiled patch through the bore.
5) With a dry toothbrush, whisk the dry powder residue from the 1911 frame.
6) Oil the slide where it contacts the frame and the sight base.
7) Reassemble, then go shoot another thousand rounds.

That's about it.

Questor · « **Reply #18 on:** June 01, 2006, 04:27:46 AM »

I have a Ultradot sight on the conversion unit and the mounts failed after about 1,700 rounds. The mounts were the aluminum vertically split mounts that came with the sight. Never heard of a mount failing on a .22 before. Replaced the mount with comparable Leupolds, which fit the Weaver-style ramp on the unit. Chalk it up to an irregularity in the mount. I have used them on 45s and never had a problem before.

rbwillnj · « **Reply #19 on:** July 19, 2006, 04:20:00 PM »

Well Questor, you convinced me. Last week I stopped at Camp Perry (not to shoot but to look around) and I ended up picking up a Marvel, and a Caspian Frame. I have the rest of the parts on order from Brownells to complete a dedicated frame for the Marvel.

In the mean time, I put the Marvel on my Colt Gold Cup Frame, and it sure does shoot.

Questor · « **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2006, 01:12:36 AM »

Good luck with it. It's about all I've been shooting since I got it. It gives me the satisfaction of developing my 1911 skills without using the more expensive ammo. My recommendation is that you use CCI Standard Velocity as the ammunition. I have tried several others that do not chamber reliably. I've also tried the European ammos, but there's not need to spend the extra money on them and they leave much more waxy residue in the action than the CCI's.

Did you get the one with iron sights, a scope mount, or both?

rbwillnj · « **Reply #21 on:** July 20, 2006, 08:48:25 AM »

I got my Marvel with the scope mount, and switched an UltraDot from my Model 52 to the Marvel. I just can't shoot more than a couple of targets with Iron Sights before my eyes get tired and things go blurry.

At first, I put the Marvel on the frame for my Series 70 Gold Cup. I had problems with the slide hitting the top front lips of the magazines, and the slide would not go into battery. I pulled out a couple of original Colt Ace Mags, and they worked fine. Then I switched the Marvel to one of my Kimber Stainless Gold Match Frames, and the Mavel magazines worked fine with that set up. All of this is temporary until I can build the dedicated lower with the Caspian Frame I just bought.

CCI SV has been my standard for quite a while, so I'll probably stick with it. At times CCI SV has been hard to find, so I have tried the Eley primmed Aguila Super Extra Standard Velocity. It seems to be pretty comparable to the CCI SV, and about $5 less per brick.

Questor · « **Reply #22 on:** July 20, 2006, 11:38:51 AM »

Son of a gun rbwillinj !

I'm using mine on a Kimber gold match and also use an ultra dot and my alternate ammo is Aguila SE standard velocity. I've found that the Aguila doesn't feed reliably sometimes in the Marvel, especially when the temperature is cooler than about 75F. I've had no failures with the CCI. I know how frustrating it can be to get CCI. I've been able to get it mail-order, but have been buying it locally lately and try to stay at least 1000 rounds on hand so I don't run out. That Aguila has to be the best deal in practice ammo. I bought a case of 5000 for about $124 delivered from the distributor in Texas. That was a couple of years ago.

RWS Target Rifle is another good one in my target pistols. Excellent reliability, and not that much more expensive than CCI. Only problem is that it has that Euro-Goop coating on the bullets, which isn't much of a problem at all. I've never had a defective one, and I've shot about a case and a half of it.

The odd thing about mine is that the the magazines I got with the Marvel (I ordered a second magazine), and they are both made by Colt.

rbwillnj · « **Reply #23 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:08:59 PM »

My Marvel magazines say Colt also, but they are not made by Colt. I forget who makes them, but not Colt. I'd be curious if Colt ever made them, or if they just farmed them out. Althought the mags from Marvel look pretty much the same as the mags that came with my original Colt 22 conversion, there is quite a difference in the top lips. Marvel has had some real quality issues with their magazines, and if you are a regular reader of the Bullseye List, you have seen lots of complaints. I'm worried about the ones I got with my Marvel, but its too early to say.....the only time I've shot it, I use the mags from my Colt conversion. Tonight I'm going to shoot it with the Kimber lower and the Marvel mags.

Questor · « **Reply #24 on:** July 20, 2006, 01:55:11 PM »

I've had no problems at all, with the magazines or anything else.

rbwillnj · « **Reply #25 on:** July 20, 2006, 03:23:16 PM »

Well I just got back from the range, and the marvel mags and everything worked fine using the Kimber lower. Can't wait to get the Caspian frame put together. The Kimber frame that I used is from a gun that I use for IDPA, and the trigger is great for that, but a little heavier than I would use on a 22 for Bullseye.

44 Man · « **Reply #26 on:** September 19, 2006, 10:16:23 AM »

Questor, I'm glad you are enjoying your Marvel unit. Have you considered your hammer spring as adding to your reliability problems. Do you still have the stock 23# spring in your Kimber? You can drop to a 21, 20 or even a 19# and still have a reliable .45. That might be enough to allow the unit to cycle with standard velocity .22s that you prefer. You might want an extra main spring housing and just swap back and forth with the unit. Just ideas. 44 Man

rbwillnj · « **Reply #27 on:** September 20, 2006, 02:54:31 AM »

Good Point, when I put together the dedicated frame for my Marvel, I used a 19# Hammer Spring. Haven't had any problems at all.

Questor · « **Reply #28 on:** January 29, 2007, 03:32:31 AM »

Follow-up one year later.

I took the Marvel to the cold indoor range after shooting it for a year. Air temps were in the low 30's. Functioning was flawless. Apparently the gun just needed to be broken in. Recall that last year when the conversion unit was new that it cycled unreliably.