Drive Hunting versus Long Range Hunting

[IOWA DON]

Not long ago there was a discussion of long range shooting of game. I sided with those who thought it to be ethical. Anyway, I spent two days watching a group of eight hunters conducting some deer drives. It was a shotgun slug only season and all the hunters used the old-fashioned slugs and only one had a gun with a rifled barrel. I did not have a permit for that season and only hung out with the group and observed (and helped field dress deer). The group did not shoot does although they could have purchased doe permits in addition to their buck permits. At least three bucks were shot at, but apparently cleanly missed. Two bucks were wounded but escaped. Three bucks were shot and recovered. Of the three bucks recovered, one was hit once in the butt and once in the lung area. Another was hit once in the foot and once in the lung area. The other was hit eight times, pretty much all over ,with one slug in the lung area. In general, I still feel that for a competent rifleman, shooting game at long range is ethical. I still question whether drive hunting is ethical, especially when the shooters are poor marksmen.

[Coyote Hunter]

Iowa Don –

 “three bucks … apparently cleanly missed”  “Two bucks were wounded but escaped.”  “one was hit once in the butt”  “Another was hit once in the foot…”  “The other was hit eight times, pretty much all over”

That’s some pretty poor shooting!  What was the problem – were the animals on the run or were the shooters just that bad?

I’m with you, I don’t have an ethical problem with long range hunting, although my longest shot to day is only 350 yards.  I do have a problem with people taking shots they have no reasonable expectation of making, which often results in wounded and lost game.  And that situation often occurs at 100 yards or less.

[IOWA DON]

I think almost all shots were taken at running animals. However, through binoculars I watched one hunter sneak up on a buck bedded in set-aside acres from about 600 yards away. He came over a small hill from down wind. when he was what looked like 60 yards away the buck stood up and he shot twice, apparently missing it both times. I saw the buck run for about 300 yards before it went over the crest of a hill and it did not limp. The other side of the hill was picked soybeans so it did not merely run over the hill and die or someone would have seen it happen as there were other hunters posted there. I think for the most part they took low probability shots. That is, ones they would rarely make. Again, they used the old fashion rifled slugs rather than the new higher velocity sabot slugs which would have required less leading on running shots. And I did not see sights on anyone's gun, only beads for wingshooting. Even the guy who said he had a rifled barrel only had a bead on it. Have any manufacturers made a rifled barrel with only a bead? I guess they did not want to spend good money to get the best weapons, but for the most part, their 4-wheel drive vehicles were nicer than mine. Also, I got a feeling most never shot their guns at a target to see where the slugs impact compared to the bead/sight picture. I know one of the hunters never did and also had a bunch of slugs of different manufacturers, assuming they would all shoot the same. He had one sabot slug in the bunch, a pure copper one. His gun was a smoothbore with choketubes and he said he thought he had either a improved cylinder or modified choke tube in it. I told him the sabot slug may not squeeze down like his lead slugs and might ruin his barrel, and that it would probably not stabilize without a rifled barrel, but would tumble so he decided not to use it. The deer with eight holes in it was reported to have run about 100 yards or so after the first shot. Two shooters put the eight shots in it. I suppose the first shot could have been the one in the chest and the others hit in other places, but who knows. Anyway, those two shooters sprayed a lot of lead in a short time. They did not say, but I think both had guns holding five shots so there could have been a couple misses in addition to the eight hits. One of the hits was on a lower part of a leg, but there were a couple very close to vital areas. Overall there were not many hits in vital areas compared to the number of shots fired. During the harvesting of those three bucks there were many, many more poorly aimed shots than I have made in my lifetime of deer and antelope hunting. And I have shot about 100 deer and about 30 antelope.

[Jerry Lester]

I'm a spot, and stalk kind of hunter myself, so a deer drive is not really my cup of tea. With that said though, I've been a part of deer drives quite a few times over the years. I've seen them turn out just like you describe, and a lot worse if you can believe that. I've also seen well executed drives that ended with perfect results meaning one, or in most cases multiple deer all killed cleanly with well placed shots.

A deer drive should never be attempted unless "EVERYBODY" is on the same page, and knows fully well what their roll is. At that point, the shooters get into position, and the drivers slowly "push" an area, not "drive" it. The goal is to hopefully "walk" a deer into position for a shooter. A running deer should never be the goal of a deer drive. Last year I pushed my uncle a deer on several occasions. Here's one example. In one place he got set up, and I slowly stalked fox squirrels with my 32 magnum revolver while working my way towards him through a long narrow woodlot. It took me a good while to cover about 400 yards or so in a loose zig-zag pattern, and when it was all said, and done, I'd collected several squirrels for the pot, and he was gutting a nice big doe that practically walked over top of him. This particular drive could've been completed in less than 30 minutes if we'd had more people, but with the proper plan of action, the results(deer kills) would have been the same.

Personally, I'm not against long range shooting of game, driving, or what ever else a hunter wants to do as long as it results in clean kills, and doesn't endanger somebody else in the process.

[Don Fischer]

I don't believe it matters what the range is or how the hunt is conducted. Bad irresponsible shooting is bad irresponsible shooting. That is not ethical in my book but, I have read some on here that believe if it's legal, it's ethical. I can't agree.

[IOWA DON]

I think drive hunting got started here because of regulations requiring rifled slugs. It is ideal country for a rifle because much of it is open. There are trees along creeks and rivers but most of the ground is farmed. That are there are not a lot of large woods. Typically, once a deer is scared out of its hiding place, it can not sneak away, but must run away since there is not a lot of cover. They do typically stop in the open, but that is in the middle of a field well beyond shutgun slug range. Anyway, in the more open areas the participants wait until the deer have passed then drive a vehicle to the next road a mile or more away and wait for the herd to pass again. The walkers take turns as there is a lot of walking. Also, in Iowa one could not wait for deer to exit a woods while his buddy was hunting squirrels. That is, the squirrel hunter would in effect be participating in a deer drive and would also need to have a deer permit. If the squirrel hunter was carrying a weapon not legal for deer the is a very good chance that a game warden would ticket him. Here our wardens pretty much look for every opportunity possible to give tickets. For example. Here there is a regulation that one cannot shoot a rifle over a public stream. The reason for the law is to prevent hunters from shooting muskrats or floating targets on water where bullets may ricochet. If a hunter was on a hillside and shot at a coyote on another hillside with a creek in between, he would technically be breaking the law. Although the hunter's bullet may pass 100 feet over the stream and have no chance of ricocheting off the water, he would technically still be breaking the law. I would bet that 90 percent of our game wardens would give a ticket for such an offense (if they realized they could) even though the hunter's action would have no negative safety consequences. That may be off the subject, but the I think the law allowing only shotgun slugs was originally for safety, but it resulted in deer drives which I think are typically much less safe than rifle hunting solo. And they typically result in more wounded, unrecovered deer.

[beemanbeme]

You gotta love these biased examples of one. I'm with Jerry and Don. Any hunting is as safe and as responsible as the folks doing it.  If one particular type of hunting doesn't suit you, find another bunch of guys to hang with. 
I don't care what they were doing or how they were dong it, if I found myself with a bunch of spray and pray yahoos, I'd suddenly remember an important appointment I had back in town. However, don't knock the style of hunting because of the jerks doing it. 

[corbanzo]

If they die and taste good....  Just make sure they die fast...

[Mac11700]

You gotta love these biased examples of one. I'm with Jerry and Don. Any hunting is as safe and as responsible as the folks doing it.  If one particular type of hunting doesn't suit you, find another bunch of guys to hang with. 
I don't care what they were doing or how they were dong it, if I found myself with a bunch of spray and pray yahoos, I'd suddenly remember an important appointment I had back in town. However, don't knock the style of hunting because of the jerks doing it. 

Yup...there are good & safe people...and then there are jerks...I've been on a few drives in my hunting life..The ones where every one knew what to do..it went like clock work..The ones where the deer where chased out...there was a bunch of wounded deer and few recovered...Pushing a drainage with open fields on either side is the easiest ones I've been on...with well placed blockers...everyone shooting tagged out...On large tracks of woods where it's hard to see one another...not so easy...and quite dangerous when folks start blazing away at anything brown moving...

Pick how you want to hunt and keep safety first & foremost in mind...

Mac

[SHOOTALL]

any bbl with screw in chokes can have a rifled tube in it so a bead and at least rifled tube can happen , never saw a rifled bbl with a bead .not that one isn't out there !
now foster slugs in most guns are not what would be called accurate , shooting running deer with anything takes skill !
ethics are what is accepted by a professional group ( check it out ) and if the govt. passes laws that dictate how we hunt then it is ethical . personal ethics i feel is a phrase use in place of morals and confuses the issue . the question is in this case is whether or not these hunters had practiced , had they filled their moral obligation . And that is a personal matter for them .
as far as drive hunting , its an accepted practice and moral at least to me . long range shooters miss as do drive hunters , short range shooters , bow hunters and handgun shooters .
When i hear ethics or morals mentioned in the same sentence as shooting , i feel it only brought up to play on ones emotion and force them to feel guilty enough to practice !
if you feel the life of one critter is on higher moral ground than another say a deer or elk over a pig or cow you may want to  slow down and consider that choice is normally reserved for GOD .

[IOWA DON]

I have only taken a few shots at running game with a rifle, a very close deer, a few coyotes running directly away, and one coyote running sideways to me. I was about 20 years old (about 38 years ago) when I shot at the the coyote running sideways to me. For the first shot it was standing about 150 yards away and I missed. And I really botched up the whole thing. For some reason it ran to the side instead of running directly away, kind of making a semi-cirlce around me except it was more like a spiral as it got about 300 yards away for my last shot. Somehow I hit 3 of 4 of the running shots, but I think the shots were in the gut, butt, and a lower leg. The coyote bedded down in a my dad's picked corn field. I was completely out of ammunition. I walked home, about 1/2 mile taking a route where the coyote would not see me. Again, I was completely out of ammunition, and had to quickly reload a few rounds before going back out. My brother and I then drove out to the cornfield. He took a shotgun and I kept my rifle (7MM Weatherby). After we got out of the vehicle, the coyote got up about 75 yards out and started walking away and I got him with the rifle. It kind of made me sick to see what suffering that poor coyote went through on account of me taking low probability shots. Anyway, I've passed up quite a few shots at running animals over the years thinking my skill level is not up to it.

[Jerry Lester]

Just for the sake of clarification, in Virginia, if you're part of a deer drive, and are carrying "any' kind of weapon, you do have to be licenced to hunt deer. On the hunt I was talking about, even though I was hunting squirrels(perfectly legal during deer season), I was also legal for deer. My little 32 magnum isn't legal for deer, but was legal for small game.

[IOWA DON]

In Iowa we have roadside hunting. That's about the only public land in Iowa. Lots of hunters hunt for pheasants in the roadside bushes. So do I. Sometimes I take my wife with and she acts a bird dog, walking the road while I walk the road ditch. Anyway, although she does not carry a weapon, she is required to have a permit. The good point of this is that I can shoot a limit of pheasants for her since she is a liscenced hunter and limits are combined when party hunting. Also, I helped field dress the deer with 8 slugs through it. I used my hatchet to split the pelvis. There was a pool of blood mixed with waste from the intestines from a gut shot. Some splashed back at me and hit me in the face, including both eyes and lips. It didn't taste good! And I got an eye infection in both eyes, requiring a trip to the doctor and a prescription. It was good entertainment for the hunters!

[DakotaElkSlayer]

  Drive hunting is ETHICALLY the same as long range hunting TO ME.  If you practice and can reliably make that shot, it doesn't matter if the deer is standing still a mile away, or running full bore 100yds. away....dead is dead.  If you can hit a paper plate at 50yds. max, and then gut-shoot a deer at 75yds, now that's a different story.

Jim

[SHOOTALL]

IN VIRGINIA your 32 is legal for deer the only stipulation is .23 cal or larger for deer ! in counties where deer can be hunted with a rifle ! and for turkeys in some counties where deer aren't legal . Also many counties do not allow any center fire rifle to be used during deer season for any hunting . And if you are the land owner , land owners child or grand child you do not need a lic. to hunt on the fathers or grand fathers land , you must still reg. the kill and can do so without a tag !
and also if you assist a hunter in Va. whether or not you are armed you must have proper lic. for thedeer drive - both small and big game lic. so if you were in Va. and was part of the drive and had no big game lic. you were in violation .
now if you take the time to look up ethics it is the expected behavior expected of professionals , the game laws are set by such in the form of game laws ie how we are suppose to behave while hunting ! so if we are restricted to shooting deer with shot guns and allowed to drive deer , one can assume we are ethical by definition ! even though we know shots will be of mixed results .
one caution i offer - don't confuse ethics by using the phrase personal ethics when the proper term would be morals , which is how you expect your self to act ! not an accepted behavior for others

[Jerry Lester]

SHOOTALL ,

I "was" licensed for deer. I just didn't much care to fool with one that time so I pushed him one. As far as un-armed drivers needing licenses, you may be right about that. In this case I'm guilty of repeating what I've been told for years. It's never been an issue for me though because I've always been licensed.

On the 32 magnum being legal, if it was chambered in a rifle it'd be legal, but it falls short of the energy requirement for big game for a handgun. This is straight out of the hunting regulations book.

[SHOOTALL]

that may be true the law says 350 foot lbs of energy from a listed manf. for hand guns  it does not list by cal , or round !
i am not trying to prove you wrong just wouldn't want another to make a mistake .

[prairiedog555]

I both still hunt from a blind and participate in drives.  That is my favorite way to hunt.  It is very exciting and I have some great memories.  But it can be dangerous, I would not hunt with slobs.  I personally have never seen an animal wounded and not recovered, maybe because my group can hunt with rifles and are good hunters and shots.  I use my M1 Garand.  I legally filled my 2 tags in 1 second, great hunt.
Now if you want to disqualify hunters for wounding and losing game what about archers. (which I also do)  That is an inefficient way to hunt.  But if you are a good hunter and are humane you will practice untill you can make good kill shots and not take out of range shots. 
It is a privilege to hunt, and you have to be responsible.

[dakotashooter2]

This is why I pretty much hunt by myself these days. my thought is if you are not capable of making you first shot a killing shot on a running animal you shouldn't be shooting at running game. I would estimate that maybe 10% (thats being generous) of deer hunters have the skill to make such shots and about75% of hunter (depending on area) try them anyway. There are also many hunters that are kind of in between. What I mean is they generally can't make the first shot but are able to compensate on followup shots and eventually make a killing shot though generally after wounding the deer first. Not something that seems highly ethical in my eyes. And how did they learn this skill??? by practicing on, wounding and losing many deer.That situation seems to be the worst cause they probably wound an lose more deer than anyone. I've never been able to make running shots my practice coming from gophers and rabbits. I probably shot at and missed 3 deer before deciding it was not the right thing to do. I don't agree with long range shooting either but from what I have seen it results in less wounded deer than drives.

[SHOOTALL]

Got to love it when people admit they can't make a shot then start throwing out percentages of hunters who can and cannot make a shot !
first i have not hunted all over the world and have no idea what percentage of hunters can make any shot and feel most are in the same boat !
i watch the hunting shows and see some professional hunters miss shots at standing game and running game .
i started hunting quail at a very young age so shooting moving game is what i grew up with , we hunt deer with buck shot in many areas of my home state by law !
i also hunted small game with a 22LR and had no problem shooting moving/running game with such . and had no problem making the transition to big game with rifle or slug gun , i can't remember how many deer i have taken on the move ( DEER NOT ME ) but thinking back it has to be more than standing still ! i have taken turkeys flying 2 with a rifle and 2 with a shot gun ! this is not a special event with the crowd i run with its just how we hunt ! if you can make the shot then do it !
the idea that a deer is entitled to better marksmanship and consideration than any other living critter is pure bigotry !
now have i lost a deer ?, yep ! one was shot at 20 yards with a slug gun , hit 3 times in the  shoulder area , was standing stone still for 2 shots ! hunter a few stands got him ! don't always blame the hunter ! sometimes the critter likes to live !
another was shot at 15 yards with a 3006 , shoulder was destroyed as was some lung and other parts , deer ran off to next stand where it was stopped . my second shot was at a running off deer and damaged a rear quarter ,  deer had 14 points with a 23inch spread , not a wussey deer !
when you drive hunt the deer are running from man and dog they seem harder to stop than when standing still .
If you hunt for food and stay with in the law all i can say is good hunting !
And if you sport hunt and self impose restrictions on yourself then do just that keep them to yourself and the group you run with !
All should take time and go back thru. some of the post , its almot funny . the guy that baits cuts down the guy who shoots running deer , the guy out west worries about the guy back east shooting deer with buckshot the guy in the south that never had a shot longer than a simi truck gripes about the western hunter shooting 500 yards !
Did it occur to anyone that each region has progressed to the style hunting that is what works , is legal and fits with tradition ?
isn't that what makes going to other places and hunting fun ?