Author Topic: FMJ ammo on yotes (Read 1716 times)

backstrap · « **on:** January 04, 2007, 02:58:12 PM »

I have a H&R223 and have a bunch of 55gr fmj bt i was wondering if they would do a good job on taken down yotes or will they run off?? i have my rifle right now sighted in for 55gr hp but i have so many of these fmj i need to shoot them up and i just dont want to shot them at a target

oso45-70 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 04, 2007, 03:16:24 PM »

Backstrap

If it was me i would pull the fmj bullets and replace them with your 55gr bullet of some kind, Just an opinion of mine. I don't use fmj bullet for any thing but target practice. You don't have much control of the fmj bullets besides in most places it's against the law. This is just my opinion sir,good luck.........Joe........

backstrap · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2007, 03:25:24 PM »

well i dont reload so thats that and i dont know if it is against the law or not yotes are open year round and no limit and it dont say any thing about what type of bullet u have to use on them like it does in my state for deer i need to call a worden and find out i was just wondering if they would kill them fine i know the guy i bought them from after he sold his 223 thats all he shot yotes with and he said it did a # on them i was just asking all u experts on this subject

bigjeepman · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2007, 03:34:02 PM »

I know a guy around here that shot a yote with his AR and a FMJ bullet at about 20 yards in the middle of the chest. He said the yote spun around one time and took off running at full speed. He never did find that yote and he looked for over two hours. He said he got his clips mixed up early that morning and the Vmax loads I had loaded for him was still in his truck. He never realized his mistake until later when he pulled the clip out of his Bushmaster at the truck when he was leaving.

libertymesa · « **Reply #4 on:** January 04, 2007, 04:32:14 PM »

You could just shoot them up at the range practicing your trigger squeeze,breathing and such that way you wont be just wasting them.

backstrap · « **Reply #5 on:** January 04, 2007, 06:39:33 PM »

i think ill sight it in for them and give it a try dont cost nothing if they run off very fare i will not use them agian and yes they are legal in my state

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #6 on:** January 04, 2007, 07:57:29 PM »

You have to check your States regulations. Here in IL, any caliber of rifle or handgun can be used for Varmint & Predators while on private property.

Also to be considered is to make sure of your backstop. This goes without saying and is the number one rule when it comes to rifle shooting.

Are they safe to shoot though?… I think that you have to consider the bullet weight and the speed that it is being pushed. The tiny little 55gr fmj moving along at 3,000fps tends to shed it’s jacket very quickly when it encounters such solid objects as dirt clods, wood, or such. I am not going to say that they won’t ricochet but I have never heard one do so. I think that they tend to dig in and fly apart leaving small craters. Pieces of the jacket are often evident at such sites.

Will they kill?…You bet they will. It is that centerfire rifle thing again. If you double the bullet weight, you double the energy. If you double the velocity, you Quadruple the energy!. There has been some reports of Coyotes that bunched up then ran after a hit with a fmj. I have never seen this happen but attribute it to long range shots and fading velocities. I knew of one such case where the guy was using a .22 Hornet with ranges being over 200yds. He may as well been using a .22lr for all the good it did.

I use the Hornady #2267 which is a 55gr fmjbt exclusively when it comes to coyotes.
Am shooting them out of a .22-250 with a case full of 3031…the velocity is around 3,760 at the muzzle. This will kill a coyote so fast that you would think that it got struck by lightning. It is so devastating on them that I have been tempted to shoot one through the big middle sometime just to see what would happen (not).
They can be too close…I have taken a couple of them @ 40yds & 70yds…the hit tends to Rip loose large chunks of hide…Is kind of like taking an egg apart…or like shooting one at 100yds with a .243 or a .25-06. I get nervous about it if they are not at least 100yds away. There is just way too much hydrostatic shock generated for this relatively thin skinned light boned animal to take at ranges closer than this and I always save the hide.

The typical shot that I usually take is at 200yds or under with most shots being at under 150yds. That Hornady #2267 is great for tiny ins & outs. The downed coyote is usually a bloody mess on the off side but it is usually just the result of the hydrostatic shock and all will wash off. The skinned carcass has large areas of bruised, bloodshot meat that you can put your two fists’s into. Sometimes on both sides, caught a big 50lb yote square in the chest once that happened to be alert but sitting and firmly planted. I would swear that the hydrostatic shock had mis-shaped the entire rib cage just abit.

My bottom line here is that Velocity kills. The fmj bullet IMO is just so much gravy because for the most part, you get .22 cal holes on both sides

Backstrap,
I would say that your friend told you exactly how it is and to go ahead and use them. Your .223 is going to have more that enough power to turn the lights out quickly out to 200yds all while being hide friendly. If you are calling, your shot is probably going to be closer than this anyway.

Bigjeepman,
No disrespect intended but I am afeared that the guy you know of had a clean miss on the 20yd shot. He should have been able to see fur flying. Using a .223 at that range would have knocked a deer down let alone a <40lb coyote. It is possible that he was sighted in for 350 to 400yds as a lot are inclined to wring out for max yardage and simply shot over the yote since it was so close.

Sorry for the long wind all. The use of the FMJ is one of controversy and I wanted to cover some of the points. I am not saying that this is the best way to do it but it is something that has worked very well for me for the last couple decades plus a few years.
You have to make your own choices based on your terrain, nearby farms, other hunters, and even the noise it makes in some cases.

onecoyote · « **Reply #7 on:** January 05, 2007, 01:47:24 AM »

I guess none of you guys were ever in the service (Army-Marines). If you were you'd know a FMJ was made to wound more the kill and made to go through light armor. It is not a hunting bullet.
Hunting coyotes is a great sport, give the coyote a little respect and kill it clean. That won't happen all the time or even most of the time when using FMJs $:-\$

Catfish · « **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2007, 04:19:23 AM »

FMJ bullets are far to dangerious to hunt with in my oppenion, especially if your going to be shooting at a moveing target. They will easily ricochet a mile and not always in the direction fired. As the previous post stated they also preform poorly in terminal preformance. I live in Oh. and would not consider useing FMJ bullets here for hunting. Ammo is to cheap to take risk with FMJ bullets in the field.

Capone · « **Reply #9 on:** January 05, 2007, 04:21:42 AM »

I always thought the FMJ was for reliability of feed in the automatic weapons since there could be problems with soft points deforming and such.

oso45-70 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 05, 2007, 04:34:19 AM »

Gentlemen

My first reaction to some one using Full Metal jacketed bullets is safety. If you are in a place you know for sure that no human or livestock or anything like that might be go ahead and use it if it pleases you by all means. But as we all know you do not have any control of the bullet once it leaves the barrel and that's my concern. If you are positive that there are no people or critters that you would not wish to harm Go for it. I personally will not use fmj ammo. although i have some 4,000 rounds of it here at home that i use in my AR 15 and for my 7.62X39 for target shooting. I think we all know that FMJ bullets will kill { they teach us in the service } I am sorry if i did not make the safety factor understood in my. prior post. There are people that i know and respect that have the knowledge and expertise to use FMJ bullets without endangering the lives of others { BUT } that's not who i was aiming at in my prior post. Have a good day and shoot safely.........Joe........

gdolby · « **Reply #11 on:** January 05, 2007, 07:27:34 AM »

Good day gentleman, Laying the clean kill and saving hides aside , The important thing is what happens after the round goes thru this 40 lb animal? I havn't been calling that long but the ones that I have coming in with a hill behind them was not on their mind and I hunt in ranchland and them ole boys get kind of narrow minded when their cows start showing up with holes in them. FMJ has its place and hunting 4 legged game is not it. you all have a good day and take care....Bill

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #12 on:** January 05, 2007, 09:47:53 AM »

I knew that this subject would be controversial and you have to consider the bottom line which is safety like oso45-70 stated.
My own usage traverses a lot of river bottom area that offers excellent backstop in the form of ridges and knobs not to mention wide, high banked drainage’s and levy’s.
I had toyed with the idea of using larger calibers and long range shots in the past but it is just not my cup of tea. What I really like about our sport is the calling and coaxing. I think that the ultimate experience would be to call them right on in to the tips of your boots!.
Unfortunately or fortunately there is just too many around right now and the livestock farmers want them thinned down. My future plans are to stay with calling them in close but I would really like to switch to a lighter caliber (a hornet would be great) and finding that right bullet for an entry but no exit wound.

Great consideration must be given to what ONECOYOTE has said. This fellow runs high on modesty and has probably forgotten more than most of us will ever learn. A lot of our newer members probably don’t know that he has competed with and against some of the greatest names in our sport. If I am not mistaken, I do believe that he has an application in for this years World hunt. Onecoyote is sooo hardcore to this sport that he owns & runs his own Predator hunters museum. I would love to get down there sometime and see some of those early calls and photographs and probably much more.

Same holds true for OSO45-70. While he has not been a competitor, his exploits in hunting and trapping would have done a Mountain man proud. Joe is like the real Mcoy
And a true pioneer when it comes to calling and shooting. Talked to Joe on the phone a time or two, I believe that he started with no call at all other than his mouth! I have heard him a time or two and he sounds good… Very Good.

This CATFISH fellow is a self-proclaimed rifle junkie and a very valuable member here due to his many post that obviously make good common sense. His points are valid as this hunter is quick to realize what can go wrong. Safety and terminal performance were his concerns I believe…when you live & breath this stuff like he has, you know what will work and what wont and I greatly respect his advice.

With all being said, I would still like to reiterate, or stir the pot alittle

That Hornady #2267 was billed as a hide bullet by Joyce Hornady himself. I don’t know if you can really compare it to the Military ball ammo which is probably much heavier jacketed stuff. The Hornady bullet will work as advertised on the thinner light boned canine sized game but I still stand by my statement that it will come apart when heavier resistance is met.
I will admit that they are more dangerous but the shooter should be disciplined enough to make sure of the backstop.
If we cant shoot a little 55gr pill at supersonic velocities, do we really have any business shooting a much heavier 180gr bullet say out of an 06 that will skip & whine & howl off into the distance at a velocity that is still plenty but much less likely to fragment the bullet? Again, the shooter is ultimately responsible for where the rifle is pointing.

Poor Terminal Performance: Yep, this exist just as sure as I am sitting here. You only have to shoot a Coyote with a .22lr to see this work. The .22WMR or the much newer .17HMR are only slightly better. They will kill a coyote but chances are good that it will run off and you wont be able to recover it.
The .22cal Centerfire rifle is a different story though. My .22-250 will deliver as much kinetic energy as my .50cal blkpwder rifle will (around 1,300ft lbs)
The hydrostatic shock is way up there and it wouldn’t make any difference if the bullet were made out of solid brass. The thing is going to kill very quickly Within Reasonable Calling Distances on varmint and predator size game.

To sum this all up I would say DO NOT use the fmj bullet if you are going to be shooting past 200yds with your .223 or .22-250. To do so may result in ricochet hazard and poor terminal performance. If you want to tag that yote way out there, this bullet is not for you.

If your shots are going to be at or under the 200yd mark, you can rest assured that the fmj will perform well and be very fur friendly. This yardage is hardly like the 400yd shot that your buddy made but is very doable when it comes to calling. Be wary of shooting under 100yds though as those two calibers will cause rips & holes.

bigjeepman · « **Reply #13 on:** January 05, 2007, 02:57:55 PM »

glanceblamm ....

No disrespect taken ... I have read many of your posts and I certainly have enjoyed your point of view and they way you explain things. I respect you for your honesty and standing up for the position you take on this fmj issue. The man I was referring to in my earlier post was my brother who spent many years in the service. The coyote he shot head on in the chest sat back on his hind legs for just a second and spun around. The yote took off in the direction he had come from and entered a woods. That one incident bothered my brother for several weeks.

If the fmj works for you, then I say go for it and I have no problem with that.

Good shooting to you.....

MI VHNTR · « **Reply #14 on:** January 05, 2007, 03:35:22 PM »

The FMJ is NOT a good choice for coyote hunting. BTDT. I tried it, once. The coyote took a FMJ at close range and ran off. Luckily, I could track him and finish him off. All I found was a 22 cal hole going in and a 22 cal hole going out, with little to no internal damage. There are MUCH better bullets out there for hunting purposes. Soft point, hollow point, polymer tipped, etc. They are current bullet technology and made for hunting. JMHO. MI VHNTR

FOX22250 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 06, 2007, 07:10:53 AM »

Quote from: bigjeepman on January 04, 2007, 03:34:02 PM

I know a guy around here that shot a yote with his AR and a FMJ bullet at about 20 yards in the middle of the chest. He said the yote spun around one time and took off running at full speed. He never did find that yote and he looked for over two hours. He said he got his clips mixed up early that morning and the Vmax loads I had loaded for him was still in his truck. He never realized his mistake until later when he pulled the clip out of his Bushmaster at the truck when he was leaving.

i had the same thing happen to me those fmj just go in and out not enought dam to bring them down.

onecoyote · « **Reply #16 on:** January 06, 2007, 11:53:17 AM »

Glanceblamm, thanks for the really kind words. It's true, I've been around this sport a long time and I'm hardcore as they get....it's my life.
I don't know about the modest part though

I'm not signed up for the World hunt either, I thought about going but I couldn't go where I wanted to to hunt, something about shooting off missels? $:-\$
If I made out a resume of my predator hunting experiences it would take a year to read it lol....Modesty huh, lol.

libertymesa · « **Reply #17 on:** January 06, 2007, 04:28:51 PM »

:)Not to get too far off the topic, but what is the general opinion of the Nosler Ballistic tips? I have been a long time fan of the partition for hunting larger game,but the first time i tried the Ballistic tip on coyotes i had two runners the same day and only recovered one after almost a mile, tracked the second one at least that far and lost him at dark.The first was hit square in the shoulder with a slight quartering away shot at about 60 yrds,The second was quartering towards me at 50 yds went plum down and was flopping i was up and headed to it when it got up and blood was everywhere on his front shoulder and hide hanging down,i went to shoot him again and he wheeled and ran,well the rest is history good blood for the first probably 1/2 mile and got less and less after needless to say i went back to a 55 gr. soft point no more runners.Was this just a bit of bad luck or poor bullet performance, I have heard alot of good about them from alot of people,they must sell every bullet manufacturer has their own version so some one is buying them ,anyway i was just curious to see if anyone else has had this happen Thanks.

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #18 on:** January 06, 2007, 05:31:33 PM »

Ok Guys...Looks like I have been shot down fair & Square (no pun intended)
I am still looking for a common denominator as I know what works for me. I recon that it is high velocity 3,760 with a 55gr fmj out of the .22-250 at ranges from 135 to 150yds.

This is not the first time around for what I knew would be a controversial subject and I have had
some heated discussions with others in the past, (Specially old Lawdog)

has got to the point of embarrassment for the last couple of years so I will usually just tell people that I use a very tough bullet with small ins & outs unless the topic becomes more specific like this thread has.
One last point of intrest is that I dont know if we can compare a Hornady #2267 as being as tough as the Military ball ammo is.
Thanks To All For Sharing And Keeping This Thread On the Civil side.
------------------------------
Libertymesa
I dont know much about the Nosler Ballistic tip. I had heard good reports about the Nosler solid base but am well below speed on their current development.
Seems like alot here really like that Hornady V-Max.

twocan · « **Reply #19 on:** January 07, 2007, 04:23:37 PM »

I shot a yote at 35 feet this morning with my hi-point rifle 9mm fmj. We were calling when 2 came in, my budy had 12 gage #2 in it and was waiting on me to shoot first. When i shot it, he shot! My yotes head hit the dirt on inpact, but his four legs were still pushing him along. Looked like a bull dozer

We got up picked up my budys yote and all i found was 50yds of a blood and push marks up through the woods. I have no clue is to were i hit him, but he got away $:-\$
Also do you guys have any little tricks on how to make peep sights work better in low light? Had to set 30min waiting on the sun this morning. I thought about white paint. You got anything else?

Dwayne TX · « **Reply #20 on:** January 09, 2007, 12:33:21 PM »

I guess I'm missing something. How can you have small in & outs, but have a lot of internal damage? The wound channel would be the same as the entry and exit holes. Unless you hit bone and send fragments through organs I don't see how much damage is going to be created. My brother in law got the idea of using those same Hornady FMJ bullets in his 220 Swift after Vmaxes were doing too much damage. Four shot coyotes, four ran away. He used the rest of the FMJ loads on prairie dogs and got a lot of crawlers. We changed his loads over to 50 grain Nosler BT's and he's back to killing coyotes and vaporizing prairie dogs. That experiment with FMJs turned me off them.

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #21 on:** January 09, 2007, 05:49:05 PM »

It is called hydrostatic shock. An animal (like a human) is mainly made up of water.
When the bullet strikes an animal, the tissue will expand much larger than the size of the bullet if just for an instance. This will cause a lot of bruised, bloodshot meat. When you have good shot placement, this shocks the central nervous system to the point of no recovery and often means instant lights out. If the Coyote is close, say 50yds, it is very possible that a flap of hide will be ripped loose.
If you double the bullet weight of a caliber, you will double the energy delivered
If you double the Velocity of a caliber, you will quadruple the energy.

Please note that I have already mentioned the ranges of my shots as being inside 225yds with most being under that. Is it possible that your brother in law was shooting beyond this? I am hardly new at this game and have been using that #2267 for a lot of years and have never seen it fail.
(photoserver down,may try latter)

Dwayne TX · « **Reply #22 on:** January 10, 2007, 07:53:10 AM »

I understand hydrostatic shock. It's why I prefer neck shots on deer to vital zone shots. What I'm having trouble deciphering is how you can say you have small entry & exit holes but also say the internal area can have fist size holes on both sides. Then, at 50 yards you say the FMJ can rip hide and tear holes. How can it have all those characteristics at basically the same time? As far as the doubling and quadrupling velocity and energy, the math doesn't work. If you look at Hornady's ballistic info for a 243 (since they offer 58 and 100 grain bullets in their loaded ammo), the 58 grain produces 3750 fps/1811 fpe at the muzzle and the 100 gr produces 2960 fps/1945 fpe. At not quite double the bullet weight the velocity drop is 790 fps and only gains 134 fpe more. I know this isn't a 22-250 or the particular FMJ bullet being discussed and the BC will be somewhat different, but it's an easily obtained set of ballistic data based on the increased weight/velocity comment. Since the 22-250 selection of bullets really won't allow that wide a range of bullet weights, nor increasing the velocity to 6-7000 fps, it was as good a comparison as I could find. The shots my brother in law was taking were much like the ones you've described in the 150 plus/minus range. I also wonder if hydrostatic shock is such an effective killer, why the prairie dogs with body hits from the FMJ consistently crawled before expiring? Their body mass versus a coyote's compared to the bullet size/velocity would make me think the shock generated by the FMJ would take care of them as effectively as other bullet types. Based on what I've witnessed from the Hornady FMJ, it's like they've been icepicked, just shot straight through with limited damage. So, I take it from your last comment, you're 100% on claiming dead yotes that have been shot with this round? I'm really not trying to bust your chops, but you've made several comments that don't compute to me.

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #23 on:** January 10, 2007, 05:13:44 PM »

The fist sized holes are meant to read sever bruising and bloodshot meat areas that would encompass the area of ones fist, not actual holes.

The bullet weights verse the velocitys does get into the math and sometimes it just doesn’t add up. A more ancient argument that most can relate to is the large bore verse small bore school of thought. Some will swear by a large bore slower moving slug while others want a smaller diameter fast moving bullet.
I believe that Jack Oconner & Elmer Keith kept this one alive for years. Jack promoted the .270 while Keith scoffed at such needle blower calibers.
The small bores do work of course. Sometimes too well. You might have to help me out some with the calibers, but I believe that the 7mm Mag or even the 300Win were responsible for a lot of wasted meat on deer sized game. We have a large and a small bore here but they both have the common denominator of high velocity. They both also deliver a tremendous amount of hydrostatic shock due to the velocity which will often signifiy instant lights out for a lot of the thin skinned light boned game.

The .223 & .22-250 can be used in Colorado & Montana I believe for Deer hunting. While this remains controversial and bullet selection can be critical, a lot of times spectacular kills are reported.
A Coyote only weighs about 1/3 of what a deer does and reports of instantaneous
Kills (one coyotes) are not uncommon. It’s like bang..flop most of the time and I attribute most of it to the shock.
This wont happen with a Bow. It certainly wont happen with the rimfire class of rifles even if you get a pass through. It will happen with a centerfire rifle within reasonable calling ranges.

The close range hide damage does not surprise me in the least. I skin everything I shoot and after making the initial cuts up the backs of the legs and removing the tail bone great care must be taken when slipping the hide over the carcass. It is almost preferable to use a blunt butter knife because of the skin being so tender.
Sometimes you can even see hide damage on Deer that you or one of your friends have taken. I saw one case where a hunting partner sent one of T/C’s 370gr Maxi-ball’s through a Deer just behind the shoulder at 20yds. Those older Maxi-balls were notorious for punching a hole straight on through and this one was no exception except for that Quarter sized hole on the side where the bullet hit! (very close range-sufficent velocity)

Sorry I cannot offer more even though it’s a conversation that can last for hours with several different applications that range from air rifles and squirrels to large & dangerous game.
I do know that a lot of the posters here say that the .22-250 is not very hide friendly when it comes to Coyotes and for the most part your run of the mill factory softpoint ammo has been used. I agree with this and it was the reason that I switched to that particular Hornady in the first place.
I never would have promoted it if it did not work for me. Have had them work well on Groundhogs but is very limited because I use the Sierra gameking for those chores.
I do have pictures of the first seven that I took last year. I tried to post them last night but there is a conflict of some kind and the link isnt even any good. A lot of people have seen them here to include the Moderator. Most of these run on the larger size because we tend to have more of the eastern wolf-yotes.
This would be the only final proof that I could offer. These kills over the years are far more than an isolated incident. I do not compete nor do I sell any products and therefore have nothing to gain. I am just calling it like I see it.