Author Topic: .357 Mag Semi Auto Carbine?  (Read 2111 times)

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Offline lgm270

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.357 Mag Semi Auto Carbine?
« on: February 09, 2007, 02:07:19 AM »
Has anyone ever heard of a .357 Mag Semi-Auto? 

It occurs to me there might be  market for this kind of weapon, possibly in the guise of the Ruger Deerfield carbine rebarred and modified to use .357 ammo.  Other canadidates would be the Ruger Mini-14 and the old, M-1 Carbine.

 The advantage of the .357 is that it's cheaper, more widely distributed and easier to shoot than the .44 mag.  Many people live in urban areas where you can use carbines chambered for pistol calibers in indoor  pistol ranges, thus making it easier and cheaper to go shooting because you don't have to make an all day trip to the outlying areas. 

Semi-autos are easier and faster to shoot than the lever action carbines or single shots that are the only long guns in .357 mag. 

A Deerfield, Mini-14 or M-1 carbine style rifle would also be a good tool to have in the event of urban unrest, race riots, etc.   .357 ammo is adequately powerful for social use and is comparatively cheap and easily stored in large quantities. 

Apart from the foregoing, a .357 mag  semi auto carbine would just be a lot of fun.  With a scope, it would be a first class plinker.  Some years ago Jeff Cooper made up an experimental round based on the .223 shortened to .357 mag length and necked up to take 9mm bullets. He chambered it in a 1911 pistol and wrote it up in Guns & Ammo magazine.  A rimless round based on the .223 might be more easily adapted to semi autos, but it would involve creating a new cartridge and that would defeat the goal of a semi-auto that could use the widely distributed .357/38 special cartridges already in use.

Does anyone else have any thoughts? 

Offline 35Rem

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Re: .357 Mag Semi Auto Carbine?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2007, 08:05:21 AM »
Biggest problem w/a M-1 Carbine type is the rimmed cartridge.  Hard to feed from the stick type magazines.

Ruger could definately make something work, though.  If not a semi, then the 96/ lever platform would be cool.  Always thought they should do that, and maybe the 22 hornet.
The semi auto may have a hard time feeding the different level loadings between the 38 special, 38 +P, and variious 357 mag loads out there, not sure, though.

Cool idea, as I like the 357.
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Offline lgm270

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Re: .357 Mag Semi Auto Carbine?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2007, 09:02:52 AM »
Thanks for the response.

Offline BattleRifleG3

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Re: .357 Mag Semi Auto Carbine?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2007, 10:39:08 AM »
The challenge is to make something attractive, rugged, and affordable.  A few people would want one.  No one would want to pay very much for one.  Those who would want one would be split between hard core tactical high capacity and conservative, classic sporting configuration.

Manufacturingwise, we're stuck between two choices - A contained action with plastic parts that are likely to be prone to failure, and a crude subgun type design that would have a protruding single stack magazine, possibly a Desert Eagle mag.  If you want to combine skillfully machining, fair capacity (double stack or rotary mag), and sporting profile, it would cost more than most people would want to pay.

IF, and that's a big IF someone can come up with a design that is easy to manufacture, rugged and reliable, fits into a classic sporting profile, and can be priced arounf $350, then they would have quite a market.  Unfortunately, with economics balanced the way they are, that would be a tall order.  I could easily see such a rifle being cost-effectively manufactured in the days of the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine.
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Offline lgm270

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Re: .357 Mag Semi Auto Carbine?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2007, 12:10:31 PM »
Good points.  Thanks for your observations.

I do believe, however, that the Ruger Deerfield could be used as a basis because it is a proven performer with rimmed magnum pistol rounds.  Re-designing the magazine to .357 is a no brainer.  All you need is a smaller bolt face and a .357 barrel. 

As I pointed out, I think the one of the  great benefits of this rifle is that you can shoot it an an urban indoor pistol range. These abound in most urban areas.  To shoot the .223 /7.62 mm and any other centerfire rifle round, you have to drive out into outllying areas and make an all day stint of it.
With the .357 Mag semi-auto, you could drive less than an hour, in most urban areas, and do some shooting.  The semi-auto is easy to shoot, has no recoill, shoots one of the most economical and most  widely distributed rounds in existence. It would be a ton fun, even apart from providing a shooting opportunity that would not be available  with a long gun firing a traditional CF rifle roundl. 
 


Offline BattleRifleG3

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Re: .357 Mag Semi Auto Carbine?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2007, 04:43:49 AM »
I agree that it would be doable, and that the deerfield platform would be a viable one.  My concern, which is probably what has kept Ruger from doing it already, is this:
The Deerfield already costs over $500 as far as I can see.  This is steep for a plinker (unless it's the versatile and omnipresent AR-15) that will always cost more to shoot than carbines in 223 and 7.62x39mm.  The thing that moves the deerfield is that it fires a well loved brushbuster and well reputed deerstopper.  Those using 357 for hunting would use it as a backup to a rifle or are in the vast minority who hunt with them as a primary arm.  $500 is usually something people will only justify for a rifle used for a major practical purpose.
Ruger would be spending additional money developing and tooling for a rifle whose sales will never approach those of the 44 Deerfield.  I'm not even sure how well that carbine is doing, as Ruger discontinued the high quality PC carbines in 9mm and 40 S&W.
If I were to suggest a basis for a 357 semi-auto carbine, it would be with a recoil operated action, technologically similar to the 10-22 and Marlin camp carbine but with a superior recoil spring mechanism.  If they did use a rotary mag or a short double stack one, they would have an appearance more acceptable in the sporting market than the protruding pistol mag of the retired Marlin and Ruger carbines.  I'm not saying this out of fear of capacity haters, just that a protruding mag gets caught and is just in the way on a rifle whose shooter is trying his best to make a one-shot kill and would never find any more than two or three follow up shots useful at all.

Those who really want to shoot 357 indoors, as opposed to the regular pistol caliber carbines, still have leverguns to go for.  That's another issue - If a semi-auto 357 was the only 357 rifle on the market, it would probably stand a better chance, but most of the folks who like 357 for hunting would also like a levergun more than a semi-auto.

Now I'm not saying this at all to say I don't think a 357 Carbine is a great idea.  I just think that it would have to be obtainable for under $400, have a simple, rugged, and reliable action, keep an attractive sporting profile, have cheap options for optics, and have a strong market already lined up for it.  It would cost tens of thousands or more to develop most likely, so say the profit margin is $100 or so, they would have to sell a thousand before they have any return on investment.  That would take a very long time if they didn't have a long sign-up list.  This is the kind of thing that would need pre-orders in order to produce.  Big companies couldn't touch it, because it would be too big a step from their regular product lines and too small a quantity.  More specialized ones like Thompson (which is now within S&W) would do it well but would charge $600ish, have limited options, and lots of high grade features that people would either love or hate, and most wouldn't want to pay for either way on a 357 semi-auto.

It would have to be a smaller company with the capability to do quality sporting arms.  Most small companies focus on defensive arms.  This would take something new, an unprecedented combination of talents, economics, and earnest marketing.

Our firearm industry needs something new.
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Offline lgm270

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Re: .357 Mag Semi Auto Carbine?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2007, 06:08:21 AM »
Battle:  I agree with what you say.  The economics of it are very daunting.

You say that we already have lever action carbines for indoor ranges and that is true, but a semi-auto would appeal  to others who don't esp. like lever actions. 

Cost is a big problem with virtually all shooting products. You have given this a lot of thought, beyond what I had considered.  Your insight into what it would take to get theproject off the ground was very informative to me.

Offline BattleRifleG3

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Re: .357 Mag Semi Auto Carbine?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2007, 09:57:03 AM »
One question on my mind would be whether such a carbine should have a tube or box mag.  The loading system of the tube mag would no doubt be more complicated and expensive.  But it could hold more rounds in a smaller space, and be more convenient to load in some situations.  Detachable mag would probably prevail though, offering removability if you want to unload, plus I don't see that a recoil operated system would cycle as well from a tube.  Shooting at a range would also be easier if you had limited time to reload and wanted to have several lined up.
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