Author Topic: CVA Can't Hold a Candle to Our Handi's (Read 4579 times)

bajabill · « **Reply #30 on:** March 12, 2007, 06:23:27 AM »

another important parameter in muzzle rise physics is the dimension perpendicular to the barrel between the barrel centerline and theactual reaction point into the shoulder. Larger comb drop increases the muzzle rise.

4 pieces to consider, line of action of the force, CG of mass, rotational moment of inertia of the mass, and line of action of the reaction. Now, back to the books, solve for muzzle rise

Fred M · « **Reply #31 on:** March 12, 2007, 06:42:50 AM »

Mac.
It would be of interest for you to explain, what parts of the stock design relates to ergonomics (biotechnology) and how it is related.

I am one of the people that have a hard time understanding how ergonomics fits into a stock design. Please explain.

It seems to me the word is thrown in to confuse people. Are the CVC people into biotechnology?

I can see someone putting together an accurate force diagram to get the best understanding what happens when a rifle is fired and counter the recoil forces into the stock design. Nothing new about that.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #32 on:** March 12, 2007, 08:16:25 AM »

Alright Fred...I wasn't going to...but..since you asked me directly...let me see if I can explain this to you...First...Give the whole definition of what Ergonomics is...and don't try to confuse folks...Here's the definition from Merriam Webster on-line dictionary......http://209.161.33.50/dictionary/ergonomics...

Quote

Ergonomics=an applied science concerned with designing and arranging things people use so that the people and things interact most efficiently and safely

It is also called biotechnology human engineering human factors

The stocks are designed to accommodate people...not the other way around since we are all built different..Set a Elite up in the bags so you can see how it rides them..Due to the stock shape which is in-part to design of the receivers rear tang exaggerated angle...and the stock dimensions itself, The rearward force of the rifle is directed downward which in turns rises the comb of the stock...not lowers it and since the stock has a minimal increase of height towards the receiver it will maintain that that angle of what muzzle climb it gained on firing...If you look at the bottom of the stock...you can actually see the curvature in the stock...not a straight angle going up to the pistol grip area from the toe as on most rifles...This too is riding the bags...While speaking of the stock...if you actually decide to compare the real differences...you will see the recoil pad doesn't have a negative angle on them as the Handi's do...The Handi;s are curved inwards on top and bottom...The Elite is a reverse angle to square flat...being thicker on the toe than on it's top..this too helps with stopping muzzle climb and recoil...Now...understand this...You Don't have to shoot these rifles off the receiver like you do with a handi...You can shoot them just like a bolt gun if you want...You Don't have to pull all the way thru on the trigger...You can let it break just like your bolt guns too...So...shooting it off the fore arm allows the rifle to SLIDE in the bags with it's long wide fore arm......You can't get this with a Handi unless you restock it and re-bed it...and then it's a gamble if it will work or not.....You all should have heard this saying...."It is the sum of the whole"...meaning it is not just 1 thing that gives this less muzzle climb...but all of them together that does...

Stock designers have been doing things like this for a long time...My father did at least in the 40's 50's & 60's...It isn't nothing new...It isn't rocket science...and you don't need a slide rule to figure it out...One just needs little common sense when it comes to how a gun recoils and how angles effect straight line forces...Pushing and shoving in other words...How it pushes in 1 direction...and how the angle directs that push into a different angle...The bore height can be changed and can be above any axis and have it's straight rearward line force directed differently by changing the angle of the stock where that force is applied and the angles of the butt stock end that directs that force into your shoulder...All one has to do is to think about a ricochet...and how the angle of what the bullet is striking it re-directs the bullets path and can do so multiple times as long as it is in motion......Is that simple enough? If you want a more technical view...Look to your laws of physics...and look at the rule governing bodies in motion......Some here forget...It is the sum of the whole......and the Laws of Physics is no different...

Mac

myarmor · « **Reply #33 on:** March 12, 2007, 08:44:48 AM »

I really don't have a lot of say in the matter as I don't own a CVA Elite yet. But from what I have felt it's just right. I love of Handis, and don't plan on "abandoning ship" any time soon as they offer a lot and are very useful.
I also do not feel that Mac and other members should be getting He!! and a hard time for buying and liking another rifle that isn't a Handi.
I mean come on, who has not appreciated something another rifle manufacture makes that our "humble" NEF/H&R does not?
And as far as felt recoil goes, I am no scientist...but lets be real here. Who has shot 2 different brand manufactured rifles in the same caliber, same load, and not noticed a difference?
My 243 Remington 700 BDL recoils a lot more than what my little 243 Handi use to $:-\$
My 270 Model 70 recoils less than my 270 Handi $:-\$

-Aaron

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #34 on:** March 12, 2007, 09:00:53 AM »

Well I don't think this is going to prove anything until everyone shoots the CVA,but 4 Handiholic's have shot the CVA's and all agree that there is less recoil and muzzlelift. So far those 4 that have shot it are Mac,Quick,lik2hunt,and me. Mac bought his because of the way Ed Shilen was involved,Quick got his for a comparison between the Handi,Encore,and the CVA,and I bought mine because of the barrel,but mainly because of the comfort when I shouldered it in the store. Lik2hunt shot mine with heavyhandloaded 150 gr. BT's,and 165 gr.Hornady light magnums and was amazed at the light recoil compared to his Wby. Vangaurd 30 06. Are any of us selling our handi's --------- no. I'll always keep my 280,and the survivor stocked 445. Think about it boy's 2 of those shooter's were the most fanatical Handi owner's around and both said the same thing about the CVA.
Now to the most important part,accuracy. Mac has had good luck with his and expensive ammo,Quick has only shot his a little but it show's promise,mine is shooting 1" at 100 yds with ammo thats mixed brass (pmc,Rem. and Win.) that was loaded to the max for my Wby. Vangaurd. Max is working double shifts and don't have time to do anything except work and has'nt had time to work on handloads mustless shoot them,Its raining in WA. st.and Quick can't shoot. That leave's me to work up handload's ,and I can't quit hog hunting long enough to do it.

So there's the fact's boy's. Digger

nomosendero · « **Reply #35 on:** March 12, 2007, 09:08:22 AM »

Digger, at least you have your priorities straight!!

Paul5388 · « **Reply #36 on:** March 12, 2007, 09:27:28 AM »

From what I saw here it doesn't look like the prices are much different than a T/C. The barrels are $194 each which is certainly not a bargain. Handis will routinely shoot 1" at 100 yards, so what's the great attraction for the CVA? Is it because they are so cotton picking ugly or is it because they are made in Spain?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #37 on:** March 12, 2007, 09:35:50 AM »

I got other problems to deal with now too besides the weather.

My mother in law's health took a turn for the worse an is now in a hospice and not expected to be around for much longer, could be a couple days, maybe 2-3 weeks, but her doctor isn't very hopeful that she'll pull thru. This isn't unexpected, her kidney problem on top of lung disease has been a long term problem that we've kind of expected to go this route.

I also have minor foot surgery scheduled for Wednesday, so I might not be doing much shooting for a little while yet, but I do look forward to shooting the Optima Elite with the proper forend and some ammo that goes boom!!

Paul, when's the last time you paid MSRP for a firearm, or anything for that matter, for cripes sake!

http://rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GCR4600

http://rrarms.com/catalog.php?search=cva+optima+elite&submit.x=10&submit.y=14

Tim

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #38 on:** March 12, 2007, 09:57:19 AM »

Paul I've had at least 9 barrels at 1 time and 4 recievers and only 1 shot 1" or better with my best handloads. It selfdestructed in 80 rds.with a .005 shim needed. All the rest shoot 1 1/4" or more with considerable tweaking to shoot that good. Mac and I both decided to do nothing more than run a dry patch through the bore to clean it ( the second patch came out clean) and thats how we tested them. No shims,not 1 hr. cleaning,no flitzing,no nothing. My 243 is shooting 7 out of 10 in the same hole at 54 yds.with minor load development,and some ratty Rem brass. It shoots the 55 gr. Sierra's and the 100 gr. Rem. corlokt factory ammo the same.Some of the finest guns in the world are built in Spain with prices of $70000 and up,and they are really nice guns.If the CVA's do well in the market,NEF will have to do something about the Quality control progam,and that's going to help all of us. Maybe we'll see the last of out of spec's barrels and chambers,not to mention all the transfer bars falling out in our hands. Think of a Handi that did'nt have any problem's like opening on fireing and no tinkering to do,or flitzing the chamber so it will eject. If the CVA can force NEF to fix all the problem's we'll all benfit from it. Digger

bigjeepman · « **Reply #39 on:** March 12, 2007, 10:03:04 AM »

My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family Tim.

Norseman112 · « **Reply #40 on:** March 12, 2007, 10:54:50 AM »

Hummmm I have been gone a while. I like my handi rifles...and while I enjoy them (Pssst) I also enjoy other brand name rifles.

I feel this way, I will give anything a try. manufactures, gunsmiths and auto makers, all have to earn my business. Not to long ago people, friends( rightly or wrongly) said stay away from Spanish steel, but perhaps now CVA is a good product. I will probably give one a try what the heck. Best wishes and prayers to you Tim

John

nomosendero · « **Reply #41 on:** March 12, 2007, 01:11:13 PM »

The best companies have had lawsuits & product recalls, I have no doubt that CVA has.

Does the design of this product that has not been made in awhile have anything to do with the quality/strength of steel in the Optima Elite & Begara barrels?

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #42 on:** March 12, 2007, 04:13:25 PM »

Paul,I imagine that CVA's insurance co. is making sure of the quality of steel in them,and ED Shilen certainly would.If you have that many Handi's that shoot that great,you need to take $1 and buy a lotto ticket,with that kind of luck you could'nt lose. Every manu. has had lawsuits including Sako,and everyone knows there quality. Also you may remember me saying that I don't know how well these things are going to stay together,but for right now,I really like mine. Digger

Paul5388 · « **Reply #43 on:** March 12, 2007, 04:57:47 PM »

Digger,

I need to back down a little. I did have a lot of trouble with the forearm lug being welded off center on my .357 barrel, the one I had installed at the factory. I don't want you to think I don't recognize there can be some quality control issues with Handis.

Some of what I have said is justification for a personal preference. In single shots, I prefer the Handi to the Rossi, CVA and T/C. All due to fit and finish and/or price and/or looks. IMO, none of the others favorably compare to the looks of a synthetic Handi or the BC carbine, especially if they cost more.

I don't sight in any of my Handis at less than 100 yards, except the .38-55 and that will change when I mount a scope on it. I think I've posted enough targets to make my point about them shooting about 1" at 100 yards, even the .45-70.

I don't plan on buying a Rossi, a CVA or a T/C.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #44 on:** March 12, 2007, 05:13:53 PM »

To each his on,I like all firearms and will buy one just to see if it shoots good. I've bought lots of Handi's and gave them to my son,soninlaw,and grandkids. I have no idea how many I've bought in the last year,but it would have to be between 5 or 10. They're my fun guns,and truck guns.I leave the serious hunting to my bolt guns.I even bought 2 Saiga's last year and they really surprised me also.
The CVA's are my favorite rite now,but knowing myself and if a new one pop's up and its good the Cva will probably stay home. Have a goodin Paul. Digger

Paul5388 · « **Reply #45 on:** March 12, 2007, 06:11:35 PM »

I can't say I like or have a use for all firearms. There are some I have no use for at all. For example, I have no use for a .50 BMG or a .32 ACP. I must not have any use for a belted magnum rifle, since I haven't ever owned one and don't plan on owning one. I don't have a use for a .17 caliber and don't plan on owning one of those either. Yep, there's a lot of guns and chamberings I don't have any use for, because what I listed didn't even scartch the surface.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #46 on:** March 12, 2007, 09:15:45 PM »

Here's some interesting reading regarding the issue that Paul thought he would try to inject into the fray with his link to Randy Wakemans BS at Chucky Hawks site

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217582

Now...If this is how this thread is going to progress...I will move it off of here..and put it on the CVA forum...There's no need in muddling the thread any further...besides...some folks don't want any discussion about them here

It's time for folks to get a grip on bad mouthing...and on getting upset over the CVA's...If you don't believe what some of us have said...fine...Go get one and prove us wrong...If you are interested and want to know more about them......head over here and ask away...http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/board,198.0.html

Mac

McLernon · « **Reply #47 on:** March 13, 2007, 02:28:59 PM »

Good idea Mac!(ie moving to CVA thread)

Mc

oldrookie · « **Reply #48 on:** March 15, 2007, 03:44:48 AM »

Thanks MAC!

Mac11700 · « **Reply #49 on:** March 15, 2007, 03:48:30 AM »

Your Welcome

Mac